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What if your breath could become a doorway to something deeper?

In this episode, we sit down with John Osborne: meditation teacher, breathwork expert, and senior faculty member of the Art of Living Foundation, to explore the profound connection between breath, consciousness, and human transformation.

Together, we dive into how breathwork can help quiet the mind, release deeply held stress, and reconnect us with what John calls the "unchanging" part of ourselves. From PTSD and addiction recovery to meditation, spirituality, and the power of living in the present moment, this conversation explores why the breath may be one of the most overlooked tools for healing and self-discovery.

This isn't just a conversation about breathing: it's an exploration of awareness, resilience, and what becomes possible when we learn to connect with the deeper intelligence within us.

Topics We Explore:

• How breathwork impacts the mind, body, and emotions
• Using breath to help heal PTSD and trauma
• Why the present moment is the source of creativity and joy
• The connection between breath and spiritual traditions
• Meditation, consciousness, and direct spiritual experience
• Addiction recovery, surrender, and inner transformation
• Connecting with the "unchanging" self beneath life's chaos

Connect with John Osborne: https://www.artofliving.org/ 

Learn More about The Viking Academy: https://www.vikingacademy.com

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Episode Transcript:

Hi everyone and welcome back to the Viking Academy podcast. This week we've got John Osborne. Now John Osborne uh

He's a senior faculty member at the Art of Living Foundation. Um arttofl.org.

You got to go check this out. John is uh an expert when it comes to breathing techniques. And what we talk about in

This podcast is not only how breathing techniques can help uh PTSD, he talks specifically around army vets and the

Work that he's doing around the United States to help them reintegrate into life. We go deep into how breath work

Actually gets you in touch with what he calls the unchanging. There's a changing world and then it's that which is

Unchanged. Basically source we talk about source code which is God Alibaba Buddha Brahma baby Jesus whatever you want to call it but once you connect to

This and have this experience of the oneness of life and this is you know the ultimate exploration is the exploration

Of self and so this is going within and he says it's all within us but he uses breathing techniques to access it and he

Actually it you know I'm not going to tell you much more on this because it was such a great podcast The the main

Kicker from this is I'm going to do some breath work. I'm going to dive into it heavily now because uh from what John

Just shared with me how much more effective it is to actually have constant contact with your higher self.

And that for me is the ultimate exploration. And ultimately what I'm here to do is explore myself. And

Hopefully you will be energized and inspired to do the same because ultimately once you get into that tap

Place of the unchanging everything changes. See what I just did there?

Okay, let's do it. Let's go explore.

Hey, John. So, you were just saying you like you liked what you saw in the background there, right? Yeah. What?

I have Scandinavian ancestry and so when I see the accent, I see the shield somehow seems a little familiar to me.

Yeah. So, I've got, for those of you listening on the podcast and not watching the video, I've got a Viking axe, a shield, and I've got a another

Document that's beside it, which is called my unique ability. So, that always reminds me of my my body, my mind, and my spirit. So, um it's always

An it's a reminder all the time of uh and and on the Viking shield, you'll see it's the world serpent eating its own tail. Yeah.

Yeah. That that's the rep for me the representation of spirit. So kind of a universal symbol you see that uh snake and its tail in many different civilization.

Yeah. So what which other ones are there?

Mexico. It's very popular in Mexico and Central America.

Okay. Yeah. So and the symbolism of that is

I think the uh the spirit turning in on itself and uh okay connecting with its deepest level.

Right. The other time, the other thing I also think about that is that I think in terms of uh when I see it, it also

Reminds me I'm not to overthink things because I'm eating myself, eating my own tail. You know what I mean? Got it.

Yeah. So, what where is your ancestor? Like uh Scandinavian where what parts?

From not from the Viking part so much, but from Finland and Sweden. Oh, okay.

And uh I think Vikings are mostly from Denmark and Norway, but from Finland and Sweden. And the other side of my family is from Ireland. So it's an interesting combination.

Right on. Yeah. So if you're I Well, then if you're Irish, you probably have some Norwegian in you. Anyways, right. From the Viking.

Yeah. Exactly. I always I say that to my father-in-law all the time. I say, "Uh, when he gives me a hard time, he's from Scotland and he has blue eyes and I said, "Just remember where your blue

Eyes came from." He goes, "Oh, you're such a prick. You're such a prick." So it's uh comes from uh Viking invasion, the Northmen.

Yeah. Big time. Which was a very shortened period of time too like it wasn't it wasn't very long and it

Followed a a comet if I recall correctly there was a a sky comet that flew across the the in England they saw this huge

Comet fly across the sky and uh right soon after that the Vikings went in and started doing their Viking stuff and it

Only happened for a short period of time so they kind of went berserk for a while and then because I'll tell you right now I go to Norway and you you just don't it doesn't make any sense to me why that

That the brand of people would be such um violent a violent past. Do you know what I mean?

Right. And the Norsemen uh eventually settled and founded towns. Dublin is a

Is a waking town. And then the uh Normans who conquered England uh were

Descended from the Norsemen. The Normans that came from France descended from the Norsemen. Yeah. So very interesting.

Yeah. And and where we are in North America, they were the first to come the first Europeans to come across.

So absolutely the explorers from uh all kinds of places.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's you know and again this is why the that's why I've I've said call it like self-discovery wrapped in a Viking blanket. That's what the Viking Academy

Is all about, right? And so again, you and I were kind of just briefly talking before we started the podcast that um you know we just we just met I met

Through your publicist. I guess they came did a reach out and said, "Hey, we'd love to have I think there might be a good fit here, right?" And I looked at your background. I'm like, "Oh, this is going to be fun.

This is Can't wait. Can't wait." So, give me give me give me and and the listener and the watcher a little

Background on who you are and and what you're doing now. So, we kind of have a little backstory here, right? I grew up in upstate New York,

Little town called Skinny Atlas on a lake in upstate New York. Uh had a pretty normal childhood. Uh experienced

Periods of kind of deep silence what woke me up a little bit uh and uh kind of began a spiritual journey on a course

Called Outward Bound which you may know about. It uh brings young people out into the wilderness and I had a three-day solo which uh dropped me into

Silence for three days. I'd never had that experience before. So that kind of gave me a taste of wanting to experience myself at a deeper level. I ended up

Teaching an outwardbound light course the next year, the next summer and one of my uh colleagues and good friends uh

Had this indestructible sense of humor, a lot of energy, got along great with the students. Students loved him. And it

Being the end of the 60s, I said, "Uh, tell me what drugs you're taking. What's the story?" And he said, "No, it's this thing I do

When I close my eyes twice a day." And uh he's talking about meditation. And I uh I said, "That sounds really strange."

He said, "Yeah, I understand." He kind of put his hand on my shoulder. And because he's a good friend and he said, "For my sake," he said, "check it out."

And so a year later, when I was a freshman in college, I learned to meditate. Four years after that, I learned to teach meditation. That's

1975. So I've been teaching meditation pretty much uh for the last 50 years.

And most especially in the last 35 years for an organization a UN NGO called uh the art of living foundation which

Combines some very powerful breath work something called sky yoga with mantra meditation silent retreats and things like that and one of the projects I'm

Most have been most excited about is that I've been teaching returning Iraqi and Afghani vets who have post-traumatic stress and these breathing techniques

Have a tremendous transformational effect on on people who have been subject to a lot of trauma. I did the

Same thing during COVID. Taught a lot of frontline uh doctors and nurses who've been experiencing post-traumatic stress.

Got back from Australia, started a vets program there, been teaching in South America. What more can I tell you?

Well, dude, okay. So, so this is where I love this connection between the connection to spirit, shall we say, the

Quiet meditation coupled with the breath work which is of the body. So, and this is where that that connection comes in

Because um and it's been kind of a theme that's been happening with the last few podcasts. Um one is intuition and the other one is this connective force

Between the three points of you know what I call the Viking Academy is the mind, body and spirit or what what the exploration is of the mind, body and

Spirit. So, so taking you know doing meditation in itself is great, doing breath work in itself is great but it

Sounds like when you combine the two now you have this incredible healing effect.

Um and so can you can you explain a little bit more on why that you figure that's the case? Why how does it work and why does it work?

Right. Um breath is really important for a number of different reasons. Let's start sort of at the beginning. It's one of our

Major sources of energy, you know, along with food and sleep and other things. Uh most of us only use 30 or 40% of our

Breathing capacity. It's also very important for our health. Uh I taught uh AIDS patients before there were any AIDS

Drugs and all of a sudden a ton of them showed up because they discovered that their te- cell counts went up when they learned about these breathing techniques

And their immune system got stronger, meaning that they live longer. So breath breath is important for for energy. It's also important for health. But you very

Acutely touched on a third almost hidden aspect of the breath which is that it's a hidden connection between the mind,

The emotions, and the body. Have you ever, Eric, been in a meeting where somebody's really upset and they're trying to be polite. They're not saying anything, but they're sitting there

Going, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." It's like a bull. It's like a bull ready to charge because they're just

That's right. So, you know they're upset because you've seen the rhythm of the breath change. Yeah.

And if you've ever been around a mother with a newborn child and she's singing a lullaby to the child, she's watching the breath slow down, slow down, slow down.

Baby finally goes to sleep, but there the mother is seeing that the baby's getting more relaxed because the rhythm of the breath had changed. So, from time

To time, we notice this sort of in an incidental way. But what would happen if I could teach you or anyone especially

People with trauma uh rhythms of breath that would bring them back to a quiet centered place no matter what else was

Going on in their life. So trauma for instance because just came off this vets course in Australia, it's very hard to treat because

Psychiatrists and people in vet service organizations think it's in the mind, but a lot of it's buried in the body and

The breath can go very deep in the body, these different rhythms of breath and allow that hidden trauma in the body to

Dissipate. Also, if you're a physics fan, which I'm sure you are, you've got all kinds of mind, body, spirit stuff

Going on in your podcast, uh you may know about the latest or or most recent widely held theory of physics, which is

The unified field theory. Basically, it says that everything in the universe is basically energy or vibration.

Everything in the universe is connected and everything including us has a level of change and underneath that a level of

Unchange. And the most amazing thing about these breathing techniques, the one in particular that we teach is that it goes through all the basic levels of

Our existence, the body, the mind, the breath, memory, intellect, ego and drops us into the unchanging level. She could

Call the self or Brahman or in the Bible they call putting on the mind of Christ. But all spiritual

Traditions say that underneath all the change and the chaos and the movement, there's something inside us that doesn't change. And it turns out that's that

Unchanging place, quantum field state, I think the physicists would call it, is the source of all the best parts of

Oursel, love, compassion, intuition, inspiration, all those things. So when we dip into it using the breath and

Meditation and we come out, it's like we go into it as a dry sponge and we drop into it and all those qualities we soak

Them up and then we express them out in our uh daily activity. But for people with trauma in particular,

Uh we did a study at the University of Wisconsin in uh Stanford about 10 years ago for people who were severely impacted by post-traumatic stress,

Meaning they couldn't live a normal life. They were under a lot of drugs.

And in a seven-day program, this program is called Project Welcome Home Troops, uh they saw an average decrease of the

Symptoms of uh post-traumatic stress of about 40%. Interestingly enough, when they treated those people and tested

Them six months and a year later, the symptoms were still low.

Even though they hadn't continued on with the practice, were they practice? Some had not. Right? So, there's significant change that can

Happen in the body through judicious and very precise use of the breath. If you study languages, it's very interesting.

In Latin, this the root word for spirit and the root word for breath is the same. Spiritus. It comes out in spiritual in English and also in

Respiration. Same thing in Greek and in Hebrew, even in Hawaii, uh Hawaiian

Language. So ancient people knew that there was an intimate connection between the breath and the spirit. Even when you

Go to the Bible, when uh God tried to create Adam and Eve, they breathed breath on them. And when Jesus wanted to

Give special blessings to his disciples uh during Pentecost, he breathed on them. So breath is a very powerful and for most people unutilized tool.

Think I'll stop there because I think you have more questions.

I my bra Yeah. Well, you can see my eyes. I'm like processing all over the place because um

This is a this is awesome because I never I never realized it was so I didn't realize the breath work was so important. I mean, I knew it was

Important, especially when my wife and I were preparing, you know, for my baby, my daughter to show up because, you know, you go to LA, you know, the Lama's classes or whatever, you know, you're

Practicing the breathing for that. Like, I knew that was important, but I didn't realize the breath was that connected throughout all of the spiritual

Teachings and also the languages that it's connected through there. Um,

Yeah, I'm I'm I'm a little bit stunned at the moment. Also given the fact I'm thinking I'm not doing enough meditation

And breath work. What? Okay. So here let's go to this. What would be a simple quick for someone starting into meditation

Breath work? What would be something that would be that could get them started just to get a taste of what we're talking about? Because what you just explained there in terms of

Reaching into the unchanging is my experience of seeking a higher power. So I'm 18 years sober. So for the

Last 18 years, I've just been focused on prayer and meditation and clearing a channel to my higher power. And when I do have those moments of connectivity, I

Feel all the things you talked about when I it's like but I haven't gone deep into the meditation side. I've done a little bit of it, but now I'm starting

To understand when you just explained it that I go there as a sponge, pick it up, and then when you come back, so to speak, to the change changing world,

You're emanating the the oneness of the of of Alibab Buddha, Brahma, baby Jesus, whatever I call it. Doesn't seem to doesn't seem to care what I call it, right?

But I'm I I I have that awareness that path all understanding. It's not an awareness in the brain. It's just a

Knowing. It's just this love that wraps around me. So, I've had moments of that, but I didn't realize that the breath

Work was so key to the that like it's the portal into that.

And it's not only a portal, it's Eric, it's it's with us all the time. You know, you started breathing the moment you came out of your mother's womb and the last thing you'll do before you

Transit from this planet is to breathe out. So, it's very accessible.

Only the knowledge of how to utilize it properly has been up until now not very well known

Especially in the west and so wow so and and so you're bringing that

Knowledge out and showing it in tangible ways like especially for troops PTSD and I I mean that is again I I've got a

Psychology degree as well so there's I've done a lot of research in terms of like how to deal with that and it's you know you hear about all the different

Teachers and the different ideas and the thoughts of it But what you're talking about to me resonates more because it's not just we can't just treat the mind by

Just going straight at the mind. I think it's the mind, body, spirit. It's like a and the same thing with the body. Like I had a great uh podcast yesterday um with

Cassandra Ray Bodzac and it was all about you know the nutrition for the body but it always connected back to the mind and the spirit like it's it's a

It's like the holy trinity right and you know the main ways that people have been it's branching out now

But have been teach treating uh post-traumatic stress through the veteran system in the United States with through talk therapy which is fine as

Far as it goes but it mostly deals with the mind and drugs which basically mask the symptoms of post-traumatic stress.

People don't realize that post-traumatic stress doesn't get better over time without the proper treatment. So, I've been treating Vietnam vets who've been on medications for the last 40 years.

Uh, but you have to go deep into the body because that's where the trauma is located and the right kind of breath can release that trauma and bring people

Into the present moment. Have you noticed, Eric, that um even though your body's always in the present moment, sometimes your mind's thinking about

Something that just happened, uh you're regretting something or ruminating about something in the past, or it's swinging

To the future, wondering or planning what's going to happen, what may or may not happen in the future. And just that that vacasillation between past and

Future is what gets people uh very tired. And one of the great side effects, if you want to call it, of of

These breathing techniques is that they bring you completely into the present moment. And why do you want to be in the present moment? Because that's where the joy is. That's where the creativity is.

It's where the connection to other people is. It's where all the best parts of our life are. And a lot of us are missing that a lot of the time because

Our mind is vacasillating. So when you practice these techniques, it brings you more into the present moment. I also teach a lot of people in corporations.

I've taught at the Wharton School. I've taught at the Harvard Business School because the human resource is the greatest resource in work, but a lot of

People aren't utilizing a lot of that human resource because they're stressed or they can't really keep their mind in the present moment. So, when

Corporations discover and teams discover these techniques, they discover a huge upsurge in productivity and also harmony

In the workplace. So, it's applicable to all different kinds of people. It's just corporations,

Doctors, health care providers, vets, people that I've focused on the most recently. Uh during COVID, I taught

Online almost every day in one or another hospitals and was part of a team called healing breasts. And I think we taught two or three thousand doctors and

Nurses during COVID. And a lot of them have been having trouble sleeping at night and uh getting burned out. And these techniques were enormously

Valuable. I was on a podcast yesterday with 700 doctors and healthc care providers learning more about these techniques. So, its time has come and

I'm really excited to be able to share some of the stuff with you on your podcast. This is this is fantastic. I I

I'm having a bit like you can see a little bit of a stunned look in my face because I'm like, well, how how have I not picked up on this? Because I mean

For me um it's like I understand exactly what you're saying in terms of the past and the present or past and the future. I I

Likened it I've said to people sometimes I said it's like you're driving in a a race car. You're going as fast as you possibly can. You're doing 400 miles an

, something crazy. And the thing is you're totally present. You're focused on the road. The you turn and look to the right, it's like you're

Looking to the past. And so if you look off to the right instead of looking at the road, you get scared. Your heart starts pound. Oh, you got to go back to

The center. Same thing looking to the left is like looking to the future. It's like freaks you out. So I know that my experience has been that anytime I'm

Feeling anxiety and stress, it's inevitably because I'm regretting the past or fearful of the future.

Right. Exactly. It's it's that's that it's always the case. It's very very seldom that I'm being attacked by a saber-tooth tiger in the present moment.

And I need to actually my fear response needs to be on like ongo. And one of the things that I've been really

Understanding or becoming more and more convinced of John is that that the human mind and the way way we process things

Is out ofd. It's like we're in we're using a ancient primitive mind or we call it the monkey brain or we want to

Call it the reptilian brain, right? Uh the the amygdala is like the mig amydala

Hijack, right? We have we have like we're working on old software that needs to be upgraded for our present moment because it's like it kept us alive for

Seven million years. But in the current modern state, we don't need that level

Of awareness and and and and say what's going to kill me, right? Because the first thing we walk into a room, what's going to kill me? What's going to kill me? And then okay, what what's going to

Eat me? And then thing is, what can I eat? Right? And in that order, what's going to what's going to eat me?

Then what can I eat? But this fear state is also because we're so able to use the prefrontal cortex and abstract into the

Past and the future. It's that that ancient brain has gone into the modern brain and we're freaking out about things that that aren't necessarily

Needing to be freaked out about because our brain thinks that saber-tooth tiger is coming to kill us when we're looking at a Facebook post or a Tik Tok video or

Something like that. So like this this bringing ourselves back into the present moment

Is so critical, but I feel like we need an upgrade to our our our software. Do you know what I mean? Like there's an an

Enlightenment. Do do you remember um a teacher of uh Krishna Mertie?

Oh, sure. Oh, Krishna Mertie like like a knife cuts right through. Just boom.

Right. They didn't there was no he didn't screw around. This guy went straight at it. Right. He was great. Um

But he was like he goes I I see it. It's necessary. We need a fundamental shift in awareness and consciousness. He sees

It clearly. And I'm like, I totally get that right now. Like that's what I see. Is that Do you see that as well?

I see that completely. And you really have brought up a wonderful paradigm when you talk about fight or flight because a lot of scientific research has

Been done on these techniques. And scientists hypothesize that the reaction that happens when the

Breath work uh does its job is the exact opposite of fight or flight. In other words, the stress hormone goes down. Uh

The the blood pressure and the heart activity normalize not just once but over time. So uh this may be the

Technology that finally allows us to balance fight or flight. Now every once in a while fight or flight, you know, is a good thing. We're walking across the

Road and in a crosswalk and a car comes, you know, we've got to jump out of the way. But when that kicks in, as you just

Said, again and again and again, it produces a lot of really harmful physiological changes in the body, which is why people get heart disease and all

Kinds of high blood pressure at an earlier and earlier age is they don't know how to control that fight or flight. So the the the the techniques of

Breathing that we teach in the art of living foundation allows the mind to go in a completely opposite direction not only during the duration of the

Meditation but to provide a kind of a stasis or balance in activity so that we don't automatically go into that fight or flight. It's very interesting the way

It happens. It and I was just thinking back to the vets that you are helping. They are in a

State of fight and flight legitimately because they're in the war zone. They're in that but they're it's it's at a heightened state and then when they come

Back and they have all this it you being in that state for that long and the scarring and the the the body memory and

The trauma and all the rest of it comes with them. It's almost like our current and and I know that you you

Well maybe you can compare the two. If you look at this plight of humans today that are on their phones all the time, they're in a constant state of fight or

Flight at a lower level. But can the brain and the body really understand

The difference between something that's fake on a screen versus an actual saber-tooth tiger coming at them? Right?

Like it's the physiological changes are are fairly similar, aren't they? Like they are. That's why it's such a

Fascinating conversation. That's why people in Australia where I just was and in Ireland and other places are banning the use of those screens for kids

Because kids nervous systems in school are very malleable. They're very sensitive. They haven't completely uh grown up into an adult kind of more

Stable level. So you see a lot of kids who are completely overshadowed by these screens and going into fight or flight and seeing things that may or may not be

True and uh it really screws up their mental health. So people are starting to say let's find ways of regulating these

Instinctual impulses inside us especially for our kids. And uh like I said and like you just uh alluded to,

Especially with people that are stuck in the past, my experience of post-traumatic stress, and I'm sure you've had people on your on your podcast uh who either work with people

Like this or or have suffered from it, is that there's a traumatic event which completely overshadows them. And it could be something they've seen,

Something they've done, or someone they've lost. And it's so uh overshadows the nervous system that so that the

Nervous system doesn't you know go completely crazy it shuts down. What happens when a computer shuts down? It keeps trying to reboot. So for the next

Month or year or five years or 10 years the mind keeps trying to reboot and it reboots by bringing that situation up

Again and again and again and again and keeps people completely out of the present moment. It's very unfortunate and my whole premise is we sent those

People, you know, overseas to protect us and they deserve more care than we've been giving them when they come back.

And so that's why we teach we've taught thousands of vets for free, vets and their families over the last 15 years in Project Welcome Home Troops.

How is how applicable would this be to uh let's say someone like myself who's

Gone through rehab and in recovery and from you know obviously I'd never went

To war. I mean I I haven't been that but something something must have happened in my past that caused a traumatic event which which is my understanding of it.

It's a traumatic event that caused me to then go to the spirit being spirits being alcohol to connect to God. It's

Like there's a hole in my heart that I've been trying to fill that I try used to try and fill with alcohol. Right. Right. The hole in my experience.

We worked a lot with people in recovery.

I just uh taught some people at a at a domestic violence shelter who were struggling with recovery. And uh the

Only thing that will fill that hole in the soul in my experience is that unchanging place inside. Uh we did a

Film called uh Almost Sunrise with the vets and um at the end of it there's a a person named Thomas Keading who's

Talking to a vet and he said there's a place inside you that's deeper than anything you've ever experienced, any trauma you've gone through, any memory

You have. And when you touch that place, even briefly, everything changes. So if you've experienced a traumatic event in

War, it's not that that traumatic event goes away, but your relationship to it goes away. And the uh traumatic event

Loses its hold over you. So it allows you to come into the present moment. And you know, for people who've been struggling with it for years and

Sometimes decades, it's really truly a life transforming moment when that happens. I don't know if that connects to what you were just saying, but that's my experience.

Yeah. Well, it it it does and I so from my experience um and and so I work with a lot of people too because that's part

Of the recovery movement is you end up working with people. So you're a sponsor and you have a sponsy and then you know there's it's always about helping

Others. I've seen this over and over again and the experience of uh alcoholics and honest is that no one

Fully recovers from alcoholism until they completely surrender and that act of surrendering the self and it you know

The third step prayer is you know relieve me of the bondage of self right that self with the small s right correct

Relieve me of the bondage of self so that I may better do thy will thy will being that what I think we're talking

Mode here which is that unchanging highest highest power God Alab Buddha Brahman right

Um is is the is the release of the smaller self and and and surrender to

The higher self and to that unchanging realm. And so and and people experience this in the step four and five when you

You do your you know your cleansing and then you share it and then you have this incredibly aware moment of basically

Coming in conscious contact with your creator which happened to me and I was like whoa like it just changed my whole

Like you have a fundamental shift. So there needs to be it's like you can't you can't do anything until

You can't change your relationship with something until you touch that which is you but not you.

Correct. Call you can call it the small mind and the big mind.

Yeah. And when the small mind experiences the big mind, it it realizes it's like a drop in the ocean and it's

Tremendous amount of peace and and uh connection. And I would agree with you that there's no true healing. Actually,

Carl Jung said that there's no true healing without that spiritually transformative experience. But it becomes much easier for some of these

People to get sober. Going back to Alcoholics Anonymous when they can actually experience that unchanging place on a uh daily

Basis. It helps to fill that that hole that void inside and bring them into the present moment. So it's we have

Something called the art of recovery which works with people in drug and alcohol addiction. And the finding is

That is that their journey to sobriety can be can be much quicker and and and

More fulfilling and uh more self-directed. U one of the things that vets like so much about these techniques

Is that we give them a home practice, something that they can do every day on their own for 10 or . And what's the first thing that they want to do? They want to go out and help other

Vets. So, our biggest uh cheerleaders are are vets who have gone through this program who tell other vets that this is

Something that can really help you a lot with your struggles with PTS and and that's part of the AA thing. So, like helping others that have that want

To recover from alcoholism is like that's a joy for me to go and actually help somebody else. Um, I'm very curious though, you just said something there

Where you have a you found a methodology that actually speeds up recovery. Not

Only speeds it up, I'm assuming your uh shall we call it your your success rate is higher because I know in AA the

Success rate isn't all that great shall we say percentages wise even though there's never been a true study on it because we don't keep we don't keep

Stats and numbers on people but you see people coming in and out all the time and one of the big things that is a blocker for them is when we start

Talking about having a you know having had a spiritual experience spiritual awakening right oh Jesus God, we're talking about God and and I'm out. Nope,

Not going to do it. And then I have I'd rather go back to the booze, which of course the booze is them actually trying to seek a higher power through

The alcohol, which I understand now, right?

But it stops us for you said there was a methodology you found that actually has worked even better. I'm very curious about that.

Right. Well, it there are about a hundred different studies on all the different effects of these bragging techniques on this website arttoftol.org

And one of them shows a decrease in the use of uh alcohol and drug uh uh experience among people who practice

This. We have this brand new program called Art of Recovery where everybody on the course is somebody who's struggling with an addiction and there

Are people that uh that teach this uh I taught with a psychiatrist named Dr.

Robert Feelely and he's an addiction psychiatrist. He's he's all he does is deal with with uh people with addictive

Behaviors. And uh and he's discovering that combining his you know his normal therapy with the breathing is

Tremendously opening up for these people. It gives them possibility. This experience opens them up in a way that

Talk therapy doesn't necessarily or being in a group just talking about it doesn't necessarily. They feel the possibility when they start to touch

This unchanging place inside. Then it becomes easier as you said in that 12 steps to surrender. Uh because you're surrendering to something that you've

Already experienced. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah. So you've I actually really like that you've actually you've shortcut you've created a shortcut or a

More direct path to uh first contact, right? You know what I mean? Like Yeah, I do. And in the west, you know,

It's always believe, have faith, and then you'll have the experience. Where in the east, where these techniques come from, it's like experience, and the

Faith will come by itself. So for people who are skeptical, who are battered, who've been through so much, a lot of them have a lot of self-doubt or

Self-reourse, just dropping into that place is is so so peaceful, but also it's it gives them a hope that maybe

They've never had before, that they can maybe have a normal life. My experience anyway.

Yeah. And that's, you know, the interesting thing with the alcoholism, which I talked to uh uh Cassandra about

Yesterday. She was talking about having a bad relationship with foods. And I'm like, well, that's a food, but it's an, you know, it's a separate kind of category all itself, alcohol. You could,

You know, if you were allergic, she was allergic to chicken and eggs. So, she said it was a horrible reaction to it.

So, I said, soon as that, were you okay to just putting it away? She goes, "Yep." I said, "There's the weird part with an alcoholic. It's like you obsess about having the thing that's actually

Killing you because your brain's telling you it's not killing you. So it's like your head's out to get your ass. It's like it's a disease of the mind and the body, right? The body's allergic to the

Alcohol and the brain just obsesses is going after it. So trying to again trying if they have an obsessive brain

Going after and the obsessive brain wants the alcohol and if we're coming at it from

And we're coming at it from a thinking program like AA12 steps like recover like so we call it cerebral

Start to get to a experiential part you're saying you're starting with the experiential you're starting at the body level so they get they they go direct to

Source and then it's like oh oh now I feel it I know now I know it I don't have to have faith about

Right and it gives them that experience it gives them enough confidence to proceed down that road especially when they have support and they can you know

Do follow-ups and there people around to help them do it every day uh that just you know we're starting a residential program in Boone North Carolina this

Summer where people can actually come be in a residential setting and get support to do these techniques every day. So,

It's very powerful and very uh exciting for me because there's a lot of people with not just addiction to alcohol and drugs, addiction to sex, addiction to

Anger, addiction to food, all kinds of things. Addiction is just again, it's like that. It's like that computer that's trying to reboot. It's

Desperately trying to find that thing which will satisfy them, but just using ways that are doomed that will never never fully get them there.

Have you I'm curious on this. Do you have a theory or a feeling about why we

Why we distract ourselves so much? Why we'd end up becoming like

I mean there's a whole bunch of I mean I have an idea about it but I'm very curious about your thoughts on this like as a as a species and as a human you've

Come here and then why do we what's the purpose of us going through that and and

Deflecting and keeping ourselves distracted by other things alcohol drugs

Sex whatever right you know in every moment of your life. I don't know if this is going to answer your question, but it

Can begin a further conversation at least. Yeah. There are three things happening.

There's the subject. Let's take you right now, Eric. Yes.

Uh you're the subject. You're listening to me, right? So, there's the subject. There's the process of experience.

You're listening to me with your ears and your mind is is processing. And then there's the object of your experience, which is me on the screen talking to

You. Uh most people get so completely overwhelmed by the by the object that they become completely oppressed by it.

And my experience with people who are addicted is some of them are very very sensitive and they're so overwhelmed by

This uh uh sense object experience that they never get to experience themselves

As subject. And what happens uh when you begin to meditate and practice these breathing techniques is that you experience the subject at a deeper level

Yourself and the object ceases to overwhelm you and the process of experience ceases to overwhelm you so

That you start to feel like who you really are deep inside. You are this unboundedness. You are all these characteristics that we talked about

Compassion, love, happiness. Most people use the bottle or drugs to try to get there. But getting a brief glimpse of

It, but you don't get to experience it fully, certainly not every day. And you don't eventually get to live there. What does living there mean? It means to have

The benefit of that unchanging state along with waking, sleeping, and dreaming as an all-time reality. Does that make sense? Totally.

Like totally makes sense. That one of the one of the un the general characteristics of the alcoholic is that

They're super sensitive people. Like we're ultra sensitive, right? And and um and so

And and you answered the question, but you didn't answer the question. So I want to go a little bit deeper on it. So I understand the how it how I get

Obsessed with the or I get overwhelmed with the object of my experience which then overshadows so I'm not able to

Actually experience the subjective part of me being the deeper part and I get that I understand the how

But my question is a little deeper that is I want to go a step above that and go

Why do we experience that like why are we going through the roller coaster and

This more of a more of a just I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it like why do we go through that not I

Understand the how because you explained the how and that makes total sense to me get it total sense but from a higher

Level why it's it's a Sanskrit word of it is it's a leela uh it's a play of the divine a play of the universe

To allow us to have this experience as human beings. You know, all the things that you can experience in the outer

World and they're there to enjoy and appreciate, but to make that journey beyond them to discover who we really are deep inside.

And all the experiences we experience as a human being, the positive and the negatives, uh, are all there to show us, no, the ultimate reality isn't here.

It's not here. It's not here and finally we look for it where we could have looked for it in the beginning which is inside. So I don't know if if for

Everybody I think that answer to your question is a very individual one but I think the purpose of of of human beings

Is to move beyond bondage in the outer world to experiencing and expressing and

Sharing with others the treasures of the inner world. Does that make sense? It does make sense, but I'm gonna go I'm gonna go one more step. Go ahead, dude.

I want to go even deeper, John. Okay, so I get that and that makes sense to me.

Okay, but again, let's go one step above that given that we are all one

That it's the one, shall we? Unchanging the oneness, God, Alibaba, Brahma, baby Jesus, whatever we want to call it.

We are a part of that one consciousness.

Awareness of that going, well, what was this? Like coming back and going, was this ride really necessary?

Because ultimately, we're going back to where we started from in the beginning.

And so the ultimate why was, and here's the thing that I've kind of makes sense to

Me is like there was God, right? There was oneness and it was like I want to experience myself and how am I going to

Do that? Oh, I'm going to splinter myself off into all these little individual entities known as humans and experiences and trees and I'm going to create myself as a universe.

And then I'm going to go down there and experience it. But ah before I go down there and do that, I'm going to give myself amnesia

Because if I don't, I'll know that it's a game and I won't really mean anything.

So I won't experience what I'm not. So I actually it's almost like a contract we made with ourselves big selves

To say let's go down and experience this. I'm this time I'm going to go down as Eric. You go down as John. We're

Going to meet each other on March 31st, 2026. We're going to have this really cool conversation, but prior to that you're gonna have all these other Okay.

Yeah. Okay. Great. Great. Great. And then from there we're going to do a whole bunch of other things, right?

Which you and I don't know because we before we came down we said but we're going to take an amnesia pill right and so we take the amnesia pill

And then we drop down do this and then of course in the Hindu text is like once you come back up you're like okay let's do it again this time I'll be a frog and

Then go down and be a frog for a while right reincarnation that one resonates with me where it's like because when I've had these moments

Of awareness like the deep unchanging I'm like, oh, oh. And I'm like, well,

I've always been this, right?

What I'm experiencing now as Eric is actually the temporary thing, right? And I've always been this and I'll always be this. And that has never changed.

That's what experience. Yes. Yep.

To have that moment and then I got to go pick my daughter up from school and take her to fastball and I've got to pay my

Bills and I got to run my business and then I forget again. But imagine you know what I mean?

Yeah. Imagine the possibilities, Eric, of having that moment and then going off and picking up your daughter's school or whatever you're doing and having that

Unboundedness be there as an all-time reality along with everything else you're doing in the outer world. Yes.

Yes. To me, that's the fulfillment of a human life. 100%. On page with you on that.

And if I had found anything in my life, and I've experienced a lot of different methods of self-development that brought people to that state quicker than what I'm teaching now, I'd be teaching that.

So, this is the quickest, most powerful way to experience that reality on a day-to-day basis that I've ever found, that I've ever experienced. That's why I'm teaching it.

That's so cool. That is so cool.

It's not that other methods don't work and some methods work better for other people, but for the general population, the breath is such a great way to start because you're already breathing, right?

People already have that. And so, you just give them a few of some breathing skills, teaching some some very easy, you know, first by the end of

The first day, I've had vats who haven't experienced a full night's sleep, even with medication, sleeping through the

Night. The first time I was on uh this podcast with a doctor whom I happened to teach who was the medical director at the time of a large hospital in the

Midwest and he was wearing an Apple Watch or a Fitbit and after the very first or day of the course he looked at his Fitbit and he was

Astonished because the amount of his deep sleep had doubled just in those first two days. Immediately ordered the course for 250 people in his hospital

Because everyone during COVID was having a hard time sleeping. So these breathing techniques, they work and they work very quickly and they work in a very deep fashion.

I love that. I love that. So again, let's I'm going to go back to the question. What do you think of the

The fact that we just we've given ourselves amnesia to experience that which we're not so we can experience that which we are.

I think it's absolutely right. And the more you practice meditation, the more the amnesia pill wears off and you begin

To experience yourself as you really are. Some people experience it right away. Some people experience it after some weeks or months. But the

Experience, the continuous experience of the absolute is the sheer antidote to the amnesia pill.

Exactly. Exactly. And then you can still be here and joy of living and experience it all but not have attachment to it. So the Buddha was like life is suffering.

It's attachment. The Buddha laughed once he figured it out. He get you know you know had the joke. They figured out the joke and he laughed about it. You can

Still operate in this world but you're no longer tied to it. It actually when you operate when you operate in this world coming from that place you're much more effective.

Yeah. Than you are if you're not completely overshadowed or enslaved by the object, which is what we talk about in AA, which

Is it's it's all the same thing. It's like once you you don't tire so easily.

You're more effective because you're no longer doing things to serve the smaller self or in this case, let's say, you're

No longer overwhelmed by the object of your experience. You are now more in the subjective experience.

When you when you talk to recovering alcoholics or drug addicts, they'll tell you that their addiction just had them by the throat. I mean, drug addicts will

Steal from their mothers. They'll, you know, do horrible things to continue to feed that obsession. And that's where the real bondage. They're more in

Bondage than some of the people who are in physical prison because at every moment that obsession, that addiction has them by their throat. And just a

Little of this uh can really help people feel more free in the midst of their recovery.

So in the so this so this is the arttoftol.org that's the website arttoftol.org ORG. Right.

Okay. And so people and so you do does this like live and is there online courses that people can do for the

Breath work? Is there online courses? There are in-person courses. We're in 180 countries around the world. We're UN NGO. But it all

Starts with that website arttoliving.org.

I think there's some in introductory information on that website. And also you can put your zip code in. I mean, I

Live in LA and there must be 30 or 40 teachers just in the LA area teaching this in person or online. So, anywhere

In the west, you know, I taught in Mexico, I taught in Brazil, I taught in Argentina, uh, in Canada, that's very strong. So,

If you look it up, you should be able to find someplace near you either for an in-person session or an online session. Awesome.

The basic breathing course is three days. It's about three , two to three a day for each of three days. Um, doesn't have to be in

Residence. Uh, you can, uh, and and I teach other courses. I teach courses where people go into silence for four or

Five days, specialized courses for business people, as I said, for health professionals.

So, uh, there are a lot of different options tailored for people's different needs. I think I put it that way. Cool.

I was actually just I was just in California. I was down in Palm Springs last week. I just Palm Springs is a great It's a great place,

Man. We went out to We went out to um my daughter is 13 and we brought friends uh of ours who their daughters are 12 and 14, so they're kind of straddle it all.

And we're going to take him out to um uh Joshua Tree Park. The girls like, "No, we don't want to go. We want to stay by

The pool and blah blah blah." Took them out there and they were driving were driving in the car and they were like, opened the door, went out and started

Walking through the the cacti and this desert and then got up on the rocks and instantly all three of them changed.

They changed. They all of a sudden were climbing on the rocks. They're having fun. They're smiling. There is an energy there that is just absolutely beautiful.

Well, you know, if it's true, Eric, that what they say in modern physics that in the unified field theory that everything in the universe is made up of the same

Substance and in animate and so-called inanimate objects and that underneath that level

Of change, there's a level of changelessness. That's why people go to the ocean. That's why they go to to mountains. I had friends who just went

To Sedona, Arizona and felt a very strong unchanging experience coming from the canyons there. So being in nature is

A great way to connect to that unchanging experience in yourself because it's so strong in nature. I've been to Joshua Tree. I couldn't agree

With you more. It's a very special place and that unboundedness is as if coming out of the cactus and the trees and the rocks, you know, all on its own.

Yeah. Beautiful.

Yeah. I can't I I'm so looking forward to going back there. Like I I really can't wait to go back. Um it's also, you

Know, when you were saying that about So I'm looking out right now over at the Pacific Ocean. So I'm like I'm straight north from you. I'm in Victoria. So um

Same ocean, same ocean outside of LA, which is quite funny because everybody's like, "Really? Is it different? It's the same water. It's the same water anywhere

In the world really." But um when I get out on the ocean and I I gotta I I am the happiest because I'm out close to

Nature and right getting out there. I want to I really am I'm you've motivated me to

Dive deeper into my breath work and yeah dive deep into the breath work. And so you said coupling the breath work

With meditation though as well too, didn't you? Or breath work itself will bring you to a deep meditative state

And we also teach techniques which can use that as a as a launching pad and go even deeper than that. Um it's called

Sahash samati meditation. It's a mantra meditation but a lot of people just they use the breathing as a meditation and it gets them to that unchanging place and

It's fine for them. Just depends on how far in that journey you want to go and how many different ways you want to experience it.

So, I'm very curious how and I can I now I'm seeing the the the painting now.

See, just a wonderful thing. That's why I love doing these podcasts, okay? I just love it because I learn so much more, but I start to see the connection

Of, shall we call the unchanged, the unchanging, right?

It's planned for me in the changing because I'm in the changing part, but I get to see the painting kind of drawn in

The connections and the dots. I'm seeing how the need for humanity to have an

Upgrade to its software to operate. And this is that mechanism by which we can

Upgrade the software. It's bringing us to the source code. So breathing brings us to source code and we realize we are that source code.

Yes. Yes.

Which is Yeah. It's me and not me at the same time and everything around you is also part

Of the source code. So it connects you to everything and everyone around you in a really wonderful way.

I love it. Um John, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast. Eric, thank you so much for

Asking me. This is one of the most exciting podcasts I've done in recent memory. So, it's great.

This is This is great. I can't wait to dive into it. So, again, for the listener there, it's arttofl.org. Um,

I'm diving in. I'm going there. I got to do some more breath work because um I've had moments of that knowing and that

Touching and and and really I've I've people often ask me, "Do you have a meditation practice?" And I say, "My life is a meditation."

Right. And I'm sure it's brought you a very long way. But wouldn't it be great to go even further? Well, that's what I'm going to do.

That's why I'm keeping exploring. That's why I'm created Viking Academy to keep the exploration going. Right. It's like an endless like in my what is it in the

Bible? It says in my father's house there are many mansions.

Many mansions. We can spend our whole life exploring them. And also, you know, it's my very deep experience that everyone u it's what my my teacher Shishi Rabi Shankar has taught me.

Everyone comes to this world with a gift to give. And what I really applaud you for, Eric, is that you're wanting not only to explore for yourself, but you're wanting to share that with other people.

So, hats off to you. And thank you so much for having me on your podcast. I hope we can do it again soon.

Oh, we're 100% we're going to do it again soon. That sounds great. Thanks again, John. Thank you.

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