What if flow isn’t something you chase, but something you allow?

In this episode, I sit down once again with Walt Hampton: former criminal defense lawyer turned interfaith minister and business coach, whose life reflects the power of alignment, curiosity, and trusting the deeper current beneath our choices.

This conversation unfolds organically, touching on identity, surrender, creativity, and the illusion of competition. From ancient spiritual metaphors to modern entrepreneurial pressures, Walt shares insights that invite us to loosen our grip, reconnect with wonder, and remember that alignment isn’t optimized, it’s embodied.

This isn’t about finding the one thing. It’s about recognizing the many places flow already exists, and allowing yourself to step into it.

Topics We Explore:

• What “flow” really means, and how to recognize it in everyday life
• Why alignment is something you surrender to, not optimize
• Moving beyond labels, identities, and self-imposed limitations
• How curiosity, presence, and wonder reconnect us to purpose
• Why comparison and competition dissolve when you honor your own path

Connect with Walt Hampton: https://www.walthampton.com/ 

Learn More about The Viking Academy: https://www.vikingacademy.com

Episode Transcript:

Hi everyone, welcome back to the Viking Academy podcast. So on this episode I bring back my friend Walt Hampton. Now Walt and I have known each other for a long, long time. Walt is a former trial lawyer turned business coach turned focus on seminary turned into a pastor uh of a multi-dimensional faith. Sorry, not multi-dimensional. What am I looking for? Interfaith minister. He's an interfaith minister. Here's the thing. On this podcast, him and I just he he before we even got started, he asked me, he goes, "Uh, okay. So, what do you want to talk about, Eric?" And I said, "I have no idea. Let's just flow with it." And sure as [ __ ] something beautiful came out of it. And literally, we talked about flow from the beginning. We did. We talked about a couple things that really kind of rung my bell.

One was what flow is and how it applies to your life and how you can find it in multiple areas, not just one thing. Um, we talked about morning mindset and one that I'm going to take away and use on a regular basis. And then the last one was this mic drop right at the end, the last part of the uh podcast. I highly recommend you listen to the whole thing. Right at the end, he does a mic drop on the story of Moses going up to the mountain to have a conversation with the burning bush, but then applies it to us as individuals. And uh I'm still trying to integrate exactly what he meant by that, but it was incredibly powerful and beautiful. I'm not going to give the spoiler away because that wouldn't make a lot of sense, would it? But there you go. So, a great conversation with Walt Hampton. Uh, I hope you enjoy it as much as I did recording it and uh and exploring it, shall we say.

It's It was great. I just love these episodes that I go into no idea. Most of them do, by the way. Most of my episodes I go in and I don't really know what we're going to talk about, but this one really there was nothing. It was a blank slate, man. And the discovery was magical. So much fun. So, there you go. Without further ado, let's go explore. Welcome back to the podcast, Walt. So happy to be here, Eric. Thanks so much for inviting me back. Oh, man. Well, I just I thought it would be a great way to start off the new year for both of us, right? like just do a little catch up and I I'm very curious to hear where you're going now with your career and specifically on the spiritual side. That's where I I I keep hearing this from more and more professionals. It's there's a major shift especially with the entrepreneurs. I mean that's where we spend most of our time with entrepreneurs.

There's a shift towards connecting back to our spirit and actually infusing that in. And so that's what I was very curious on just just giving a update of where you're at now. Yeah. On that. I think I think you're so right. You know, after after co um and the isolation of those years uh and the isolation built into entrepreneurship uh axiomatically uh as human beings we want connection. We want connection to ourselves. who want connection to the to whatever the the that greater power is. And so I think um being intentional uh and mindful of cultivating that in our lives regardless of whether that's dialed into our professions per se or not. I mean, as you know, um, not a whole lot of people know, but as you know, I went back to seminary a number of years ago, and I was ordained, and I I was there. I was there. I was there. You were there. You were there.

Uh, and I shepherd a lovely uh, congregation. Um, my primary work continues to be executive coaching, but I have found that over the years, um, since I went back to seminary, so much of my coaching work goes to those deeper places because people do want that. Yeah. And so, and here's the interesting thing. You said that it's it's it's a result of the COVID. And the co listen to me, I sound like Grant Cardone. The CO, right? um as a result of co um and the isolation and specifically with entrepreneurs it isn't it is a lonely place because there's you know there statistically true entrepreneurs is very small percentage of this of the population um so it's like a driver from within but it's also I'm seeing a convergence from without as well like it's coming in from all sides like like soon is like you had these offers now to come in and take over uh the those church the the first church.

You just it like it popped up and just showed up, right? Which wasn't you weren't seeking that out actively and it just showed up to you. So, it's actually being drawn to you. Yes. Yeah. I think that's true. Uh, I think we see um I I think we see out in the world to um a a a call to connect, a call to spirit. Uh even amidst the noise, I mean it's easy it's easy to go deeply negative right now with everything that's going on in the world. But underneath that, you know, there is our humanity, our desire to connect uh with one another. And uh I don't think spirit gives up on us. Well, it's a it's it's an alignment piece. There just something that just keeps coming back. This word coming back into my head is alignment. Alignment. Alignment. Yes. And um uh a good friend of mine. Have you met Don Bon? Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So Don wrote a new book.

I just read his manuscript for his new book and there was one line in there and he said something I think was incredibly beautiful was um alignment isn't something you optimize, it's something you surrender to. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like it's like surrendering to our purpose and like you know and and aligning into that purpose and like I'm watching you from you know from criminal lawyer defense lawyer to to you know and and going in into the entrepreneurial world and coaching entrepreneurs to leading congregations. Yes. Right. And to me, I can see that the arc to me seems very um coherent. Even though on the outside, if you explain it to someone, they'd be go, "What the fuck?" Do you know what I mean? Like they be going like like WTF. Sometimes I do that. Yeah. But but it see like it you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, you've used the term alignment.

I remember years ago when I ran the Grand Canyon, I was standing at the uh along the shores of the Colorado River at dawn and had this this just this awareness of stepping into the flow. Uh and I think when we when we step into the river, the flow of our life, u that that in and of itself allowing that flow to take us as it were. Where where do you feel flow the most? I feel flow the most when I don't try to grab hold too tight of anything. Uh I feel flow when I'm working with a client that I've worked with for a long time. I feel flow when I'm uh doing my my writing. Um I get lost in that. Uh you know flow is flow is that state where you you begin to lose track of time that you you so uh you feel so in the flow so aligned with the work that that you're not looking at the clock and that's a beautiful place to be. Uh and more and more over time I I experience that.

I'm certainly better now at saying no to what doesn't serve those things. You just said something there that kind of um made me give a little aha when when I think of flow state and purpose like what my purpose is and alignment and flow. I I kind of think of them all as synonyms in a way. They're a lot of the time I've seen people focus and myself is included because I'm not immune to this because I'm human last time I checked is that it's I'm looking for that one thing. But you just said something there that was very uh clarifying for me and and opening like expanded. You experience flow through a lot of different activities. Like it's not just the one. Do you know what I mean?

Like people are always looking at what's the one thing like the book the one thing and and finding that your unique ability which is something we talk about a lot on the podcast because you know there's a I have a lot of people in strategic coach and it's one of the central themes like what is your unique ability and so it always looks to that one thing but you just said it you're experiencing it in multiple areas of your life of activities in your life shall I say. Yeah. And and I'm a big fan of Dan Sullivan and Strategic Coach. And thank God nobody holds a gun to my head and says to you to me that I have to do one thing. I mean, I I I step into the flow when I'm backcountry skiing or um doing high altitude mountaineering or um preaching before a congregation or writing a Substack piece or or uh creating a new product or program.

I I mean I I suppose that I could I could come and manufacture a common thread or pull a common thread by and among those. But um I I years ago my own coach said to me uh follow the heat. Uh and I said to her, "WTF?" I I have no idea what that means. uh after all of these decades of working with her and and and finding flow in my life, I think we have we each of us has a gravitational pull to a thing or two things. And that natural gravitational pull is is where we are drawn to because they light us up. They allow us to express our gifts in a beautiful way in the world. Uh and they are in fact that aligned or flow state. I think for me it's not one thing. Yeah.

And I was because I was thinking about this too like because all the the I shouldn't say all that's that that's a bad sentence to say to start with but self-help books or they talk about the um the geniuses of the world or the people the highest the high performance right the high performance like call it the Ronaldos of soccer or uh the Stephie graphs of tennis or or you know Tiger Woods of of golf. I'm just picking some words here is that they just one point focus boom put all your energy into that one thing and that's how you become this great phenom and and and I'm just refraraming this whole thing. It's it's like because I also I it was funny. I was on a call yesterday um again strategic coach. It was the free zone connect call and um Shannon Waller she said something to me.

She goes, "Oh my god, Eric, you're such a walking contradiction." Because she started she because we were talking about the fact that I play in a heavy metal band that I've got a degree in accounting and psych and psychology and are running the account or the accountant success formula, the Viking Academy that she says there's just so many things. It's like you're a walking contradiction, right? And um and I and I was kind of thinking about that and I go but in each one of those things what you just said is that I can experience flow in each one of those activities but within each of those businesses or those things there is parts where I don't experience flow right where like in in our businesses like let's just look at the business for example like if I had to go and man if you had to manage your social media account Walt how would you feel and yeah I think I would not be in flow.

Eric, shoot me now. Shoot me now. You know what I mean? So, but but but within all these different areas, you can find your flow inside of Yeah. So, I'm kind of carving it up into different areas, but within those areas, you can find flow. And it's Do you think flow is more in in alignment if we were to try and conceptualize it? I want to say globally, but just kind of like holistically, it's being completely present. Oh, when you are aligned and in flow, you have the capacity to be uh deeply present. um and usually are I mean you know with all the distractions in our lives we need to be more mindful about creating the um situational container that allows us to do that. If I want to write an article or put together a sermon I certainly don't have my um iPhone next to me because that will that will take me that that external force will take me out.

So I want to create the environment for flow around me. Uh but yes, I mean I think we we love so much those things that give us flow that we that we lean into them and lose our can lose ourselves in them. Do you find that in every Well, I just likened that when I had my motorcycle. I was riding my Harley and I was like you cannot be not present because if you're not present, you're dead, right? Well, that's like Yeah, that's like ice climbing for me. Or uh or you know, you know, climbing a big wall, rock climbing, you know, if you if or or backcountry skiing in and among the the trees. If you if you're not present, that's a bad thing. Yeah, bad things happen. But not necessarily, but being completely present in that activity. Would you would you define that as flow though? Do you know what I mean? Like Yeah.

I you know I any I I think we naturally we we're trying we're trying to put a label to it. Um I think all of us have a sense and and maybe this comes back to the unique ability that there are things activities in our life that we do that we don't have to strongarm that we don't have to muscle our way through that they they unfold naturally for us. uh that that they are almost easy, if you will. There's just an an ease to it. We're not we're not doubling down. You know, we're taught culturally, you know, you got to muscle, you got to strugg you got to struggle. You got you got to, you know, you got to create the big hairy audacious goal and go at that. Throw your entire life at that. Um, and that's um that sounds like work to me. But but but then on the flip side, when you do love it, you do the work. Yeah.

I mean, you know, like you, if people looked at my life, you know, they'd think, you know, I was there was something not quite right. you know, if I spend uh you know, seven hours in sub-zero um temperatures up on the mountain behind us, Mount Washington here in New Hampshire, where it's, you know, last night it was - 80°, you know, that wouldn't look like fun for some people. Um but uh you know so the things that draw me can be objectively challenging and hard but there they're a natural you know those are the things for me that that draw me being in the outdoors. So there is it I and I'm and I'm more I don't think I'm trying to label this so much Walt as I'm just trying to explore it to understand it more fully.

Do you know what I Like so it's it's that and it and it would seem to me that there's an innate internal divining rod call it that is drawing me to certain things and drawing me away and pushing me away from other things. Right. I call that a gravitational that's was the gravitational force. We're drawn to things. Yeah. Yeah. Like for example, like it was uh I was at a another a different meeting, a totally different meeting. Um and the conversation came around and and I was talking and I was sharing the fact that I play in this heavy metal band, right? 80s heavy metal. I'm playing, you know, White Snake, Iron Maiden, great stuff. And we're we've got we're really ramping it up in 2026. The Rain Down is is starting to play like almost monthly. We're going to go be playing a show almost every month, right? And I'm lighting up like a Christmas tree.

And I'm talking about this is just I love this. And then one of the members after the meeting, he pulls me over and he says kind of with his cowboy draw, he goes, "Do you got any steel guitars and fiddles in that band?" And I went, "No." And he goes, "Then it ain't real music." And then he drove away, right? And I'm like, "Yeah." So he was like, "You know what you're doing? I can't stand it." Right? He couldn't stand it. And and I used to feel and I think and I I think this maybe comes with age and experiences. I used to feel kind of oh well then I'm I'm am I doing something wrong? I think that's that herd mentality like trying to stick in with the group and or I'd get upset. That was the reaction I'd have like well you know screw you. And the third one when he did that I just smiled inside because I went I get to experience this thing I really love.

He doesn't love it, but he gets to go experience the thing he really loves. And sometimes I'll turn on the country twang. I have I I you know, I went through a phase where I was wearing the Stson and the and the cowboy boots and I went to all the, you know, country bars and I still like country to a certain degree, but it's like it's that allowing someone else to completely do what they like to do and do what I like to do. And I was like, that's great. Like and so when he said that it was interesting because I didn't have that immediate reaction trying to defend what I do against what someone else thinks, right? It's like not giving not and it's not not giving a [ __ ] about what somebody thinks about. It's actually it felt more holistic in terms of I love what I do and I love the fact that he loves what he does. If that makes sense. It does make sense.

And not everything needs to be optimized and 10xed. Yes. Because some of the the the the most magical flows are those really simple moments that you have with your daughter or your amazing wife. Uh some of the most magical moments are, you know, for Ann and me coming off a uh a long mountain climb and the light is just fading and the the woods are cris still. Um, and those, you know, those are moments of of pure magic where for me, I connect with spirit and the divine in those moments. And you don't immediately turn around and say, "Yeah, I got to 10x this." It's just you sink into the experience of it. And is it Well, obviously it would be. It's It's completely individual. Oh, absolutely. Like, it's so individual. I think I've shared this with you before. I think the big I I I had this moment, aha moment.

I was walking with a friend and then all of a sudden I turned to him and I said, "Did you feel that breeze?" And he goes, "Yeah." And I said, "You felt it differently than I did." And he said, "What?" And I said, "That breeze that just came through, I felt it differently than you did." And he goes, "What do you mean?" I said, "Well, I think that's the greatest gift the creator gave us is us." Like that is the ultimate I think gratitude that I ever feel is going holy [ __ ] like creator created Eric and I get to experience Eric and nobody else gets to experience Eric at all. Right. And jokingly we've said thank God for that. Right. But I I restrained myself. You did. But I saw it. I saw it cranking through your head. Okay. No, I saw that [ __ ] Okay. But but do you know what I'm getting at?

Like like it's this it's this joyful um realization that the creator loves me so much that he gave me me. And it's not narcissistic and it's not egotistical. Like it's there's a different like it's not that oh I'm so wonderful [ __ ] It's like I just think it's so awesome that all your all Walt's experiences and all the things that you do, you're the only person going to experience it. You can be on the mountain with an Mhm. but Ann's not experiencing the same thing that you are. Correct. Yeah. Like Yes. And I think that is just for me that's that like fills me with so much gratitude. Oh. And then I'm not and then I'm no longer that I don't I'm no longer jealous about what somebody else is doing, right? Which I can I see happen sometimes sometimes in the entrepreneurial space. People are always comparing themselves to other people, right?

I'm comparing my business to that business and versus vice versa. Instead, just being grateful for what you have and focusing on that changes the whole dynamic. Yeah. and being able to um support and wish them well. You know, part of the uh part of the culture, the culture of isolation is, you know, that we have to quote beat the competition. uh and I think coming from a place of you know re recognizing our uniqueness in the universe there is no competition if we if we step into that the way I do my coaching the way you do your coaching I think both really powerful I think we're both really powerful coaches and we're different coaches and my people will gravitate to me and your people will gravitate to you and there's enough to go around oh true that Mhm. So true. There's more. There's there's an unlimited abundance available. Yeah.

Well, that's that's not that's not culturally um accepted, if you will. It's, you know, the we're taught that we have to go out onto the entrepreneurial battlefield and and beat our way to the top culturally. Yeah. But isn't that just isn't that also just conditioning over millennial because we're really like we're we're animals at deep deepest level like in survival instinct is where it all drives from is trying to survive and and uh you know if you if you're not um like I was just reading up on some of the research that Darwin did when he was looking at his there's this great book I'm reading called um uh um primal int intelligence by Angus Fletcher. It's br it's a brilliant read. He was talking about the research that um that Darwin was doing and he was looking at this before Darwin came up was this uh origin was it origin of the species?

Is that what he was um he was the the the the idea was that there was complete divine order and everything was in in in complete order naturally by the creator. And then he looked at this one group of birds that over overproduce. So there was too many offspring. They would actually produce multiple offspring. Like and it it seemed to run against the tide of the thinking at the time which is like well how is there an intelligence because there's too many babies and not enough food. Well, the they'd produce so many babies and the ones that were strongest and fought for the food would survive and win and they would end up reproducing which then kind of tied into Darwin's theory of evolution which was the strongest survive and then those traits get passed on and then the weaker ones died off. Mhm.

Um, and so I think I was thinking about that going, you know, that innate fighting for survival like that's built in and is built into humans, it's still there, but it's it's it's it's clouded by what our reality is today. Do you know what I mean? Like it's like we're fighting for survival when let's say in the majority like if you're living in the western world you're in the top 1% of the wealthiest people even if you don't have a house and you know you're on the street you're like still wealthier than and have more access to to stuff than than anywhere else. So there's no we don't need to fight for survival so to speak but we're doing it anyway. So, it's got to be in our DNA and our conditioned being. I I think there's a nuance there because we're, you know, as homo homo sapiens, we're we are hurt animals.

Uh, and a lot of our fear that that crops up is that we will be left on the savannah to be devoured by the woolly mammoths. And so yes, you know, the fear precipitates the fighting to stay part of the herd. And I think, you know, my assessment, my articulation is that we we take that to the extremes so that we're fighting unnecessarily, especially now as you suggest. Yeah. And that's what like I've been thinking about this like forging a new operating system.

something that came to mind very very right very viking like how do we like forge a new operating system um forge like it's forge a new operating system to see exactly how powerful we are but not in a doineering sense powerful but how we can overcome our internal conditioning and our conditioning that we've that we've been doing over and over and over and it's just in our DNA it's a subconscious ious, unconscious, whatever you want to call it. And so that and seeing it is for me what I'm seeing of like an enlightenment, an awakening. You go you you go, "Oh, I've been acting like like, "Oh, I've been acting like an asshole." Like, right? And and then that recognition of it that we're actually more powerful than our subconscious rout subutines, right? It's overriding those.

and and um it's just been kind of ruminating in in my in my head for quite some time like and what is that what is it and from your experience and this is why I really kind of curious on this especially from leading and going through seminary and leading congregations and your coaching and being a defense lawyer and all your experience of being a single father and raising your kids on your like what What what is that? What how do you see people breaking out of that that conditioned being and awakening to the possibility that we're actually more powerful than we think we are and that we can change and that we can get away from our our programming so that we're not so we're not hurting ourselves and others anymore. Mhm. Well, it starts with, you know, it starts with an awareness of of the principle you're articulating. And that's part of the challenge.

You know, the reason you and I write, the reason you have this beautiful podcast is we have conversations like this that hopefully will peique the interest of your audience. You know, the things I write will hopefully trigger somebody to see the possibility because if we go through life on cruise control and we we are not aware of that then we just you know it's the definition of insanity. Keep on doing the same things expecting different results. But when you're awakened to the possibility uh then you seek out other opportunities to deepen that. And hopefully, you know, it's part of the work you and I do as coaches. You seek out a wise guide to take you by the hand and and walk you toward toward that that place where you have an even deeper understanding of the possibilities. You know, I don't know what I would do without the coach I have worked with for the last 14 15 years.

you know, she she has been become such a, you know, not only just a a business coach and a life coach, but a in a sense a spiritual companion along the way. And I think we need that. We need we need one another in order to uh to go to that place you're suggesting. Yeah, that's on the business side. I always say to people, I go, if you have a coach who doesn't have a coach, you need a new coach. Oh, I you know I do a lot of um coach training as you know and I will not take on a candidate for coach training unless they have a coach. Just won't do it. Good coaches have coaches. Yes. Good coaches have coaches. Yeah. Yeah. And that's that's Yeah. I like that's what Dan Sullivan's my coach and I just like I just I love I love every time I'm with him they and this is the thing is he gives me a new he opens up awareness and new possibilities for me to think differently.

It's like what is that there was a quote um all these great books I've been reading like this quote um that a mind stretched by a new idea can never go back to its same shape. Yes. Right. Yeah. It's like just just opening up the awareness and being open to being surprised too that that that childlike curiosity and um and just being curious and explore and being open to being surprised. It's that this is a book back to primal intelligence.

It was talking about how um special ops people have end up having PTSD and how to deal with that is is getting back the positive surprises and getting back to kind of like that wonder and that childhood wonder of going back in your past and saying where did something where where was I surprised something really bad happened in my past but it surprised me because it turned into being gold it turned into being something yes right like and if I go back into my history it's pretty simple and easy I don't have to go back that far just saying here's these negative things that happened but it surprised me because it turned out to be a positive. Yeah.

And so it's this childlike surprise and wonder of going, "Oh, like and so that means that actually heals people with PTSD like actually can stop them from disassociation or or anger or all the negative feelings of that." And that is some major major trauma stuff that these guys go through. Sure. If us simpleans that are not having to deal with those, we're dealing just with the fact that my mommy didn't love me enough. Right. there's my childhood trauma that I can actually see that it actually worked for me because there's a surprise in it. Right? So then going and so for me it's this going forward and going if I get up in the morning that's okay there's where the thought was I I thought about this last night. So if I wake up tomorrow morning and go I wonder what today's going to bring me like I wonder what what surprise I'm going to find today.

what's going to what's going to be what what am I like when we were children we would always find something new and exciting and we were living in that kind of open joyous state and I don't know like you can explain this better than me but isn't that also one of the tenants of being childlike in the script like in the sure spiritual teachings it's like don't be childish but be more childlike yes yeah playful curious playful curious playful and curious and open to surprise and wonder. I love that. The and the and the question that you ask is similar to the question I ask and I've just trained myself. Um both Ann and I have trained ourselves. We It's one of the very first questions we talk about in the morning. What amazing opportunities will come our way today? Yeah. What amazing opportunities will come our way today?

You know, there's there's um lots of [ __ ] that comes our way as as business people, as as human beings. Um, but what we focus on, we see. If we want to focus on everything that's going horribly wrong in the world, well, you know, we'll get we'll get stuck in that. But if we're looking for the opportunities, if we're looking for the grandeur, the beauty, um, we'll see more of that for sure. But that's training of the mind. That's that's that's that's in that's intention. Right. And there's what that that alignment comes in with the body, mind, and spirit. Yeah, that's what I keep thinking about with the Viking Academy is this ex exploration of the body, the mind and the spirit, but it's about individual like so we're exploring those individual areas, but inadvertently every call or every podcast I have guest, we end up talking about all three and how it how it integrates and aligns.

Once you have it in alignment uh or shouldn't maybe that's not the right word when it aligns and you feel alignment then you have flow. Well yes and you know just of to kind of ground that principle. Um these bodies are pretty special treasures. I mean they are you know our human experience is is precious and this vehicle that we have um like every high performance vehicle requires care. And when we do not give it the care that it deserves and we're feeling horrible because, you know, we've eaten, you know, had too much to drink or we we've uh, you know, just binged over the holidays and we're and we're not feeling well in our bodies, then it's very difficult um to look for what's going well in the world or it's very difficult to think about you know where is the flow the spiritual flow.

So they do body mind and spirit all work in conjunction and it's very easy to get out of alignment um if you ignore one of those components. Yeah, I can. Just like you were reading my mail as over the Christmas I was way too much sugar and man that sugar like I found I've been I've been off the sugar for a long time and now I find that I have just a little bit I end up feeling like absolute [ __ ] Mhm. Yeah. Well, it's, you know, me, I, as a endurance athlete, I decided a number of years ago, going on probably eight or nine years ago, that I just I didn't want to drink anymore because it I was detoxing at night. I'd wake up in the morning not really focused. Um, and you know, I love a good craft beer or a nice glass of Malbec, but it but I know that it doesn't keep the machine in a in a happy optimized place.

And it and it it it impacts my ability to connect with flow, with alignment, with the divine, with the things that I love to do. Right. And so we make choices. Yeah. My in my case it was a little different than that. It wasn't I enjoy a you said I enjoy a craft beer or a you know a glass of wine. In my case I enjoy a keg of beer or I enjoy a case of wine over three days and copious amounts of cocaine to go with it. Right? Like there was no there was I always laugh when I hear people going I really enjoy a nice glass of wine and I'm like I do not understand that. I don't I don't I don't understand that at all. That's a whole different type of flow, Eric. Oh, there's a Yeah, that's a dangerous waterfall. Yeah, that's a flow that just Yeah, we can go down a whole another rabbit hole on that one. Holy crap. Um, so here's a question.

How are like you've now moved from the last church you were at, you're moving, you've moved to a new one, right? Yes. Yeah. Okay. And and um like how many people are you are you what's your congregation? What's your herd? About 50 or 60 people? Okay, that's that must be a that's a good size to get very close with everybody. Oh, it's a lovely size. Yeah, it's a it's a growing congregation, a vibrant congregation. Uh but you do get to know people um at a very deep level. uh you know it's the the work of a pastor is not not superficial. Um so when you were ordained it was inter and please correct me because I'm probably going to get this wrong. It was inter inter um faith interfaith ordainment. So because it so it was because really cool when I was at your ordainment because there was all sorts of different people and they had and they was it a combination of two?

Did everyone have to have at least two? So when you when when I went back to seminary, we had to declare a major and a minor, okay? If you will, um a a primary tradition to focus on and a secondary tradition. And my uh faith tradition of uh of birth was Christianity. I had floated around. I've done a lot of work in Buddhism and Hinduism and, you know, Eastern traditions and new age thought and all of that. But I thought, okay, well, you know, my my tradition growing up was Christianity, so I'm going to make that my primary tradition. And then, um, I've always been interested in Native American spirituality. So I I designated that as my secondary tradition and and I went deep in that studying the uh traditions and practices of um Native American uh communities. I think five over 500 tribes uh and and that was beautiful work.

I love the interconnectivity of the the Native American thinking like the more like the birds, the trees, the the like and you know growing up on the west coast of uh Canada, it was uh steeped into our um education as well. So we learned a lot about you know what the totems meant and how the spirit animals were all in. But it's all this interconnected um that there's a spirit for the bear and there's a spirit bear and there's a spirit for the whale and yes how how much of that so that interfaith here's where my question is is like when you are with your congregation how much do you feather in any of that into your sermons or do you not do you keep it out? Oh no no all of the time. Okay. Yeah. I I did a uh uh a wedding not long ago where I called in the directions uh and you know and invited back in the ancestors uh into the into the ceremony.

There are so many elements that that are beautiful in other traditions and not to appropriate them or misappropriate them but to but to deepen our experience um of our own spirituality uh because you know I I believe that uh they're all these traditions are all fingers pointing at the same moon as the Buddhists say. Yes. Yeah. You and I have had lots of conversations about this at every having done I I haven't gone as deep as you have, but I have read and studied all sorts of different religions and I'm like they're all pointing to the same they're all pointing at the same thing. As you say, they're pointing at the same moon. Well, that's cool. I because I never asked you that question before because I wasn't sure how much of it you actually got to put into your because the church you're at, what what is the denomination? It's a Christian denomination. It's uh United Church of Christ.

Okay. So, United Church. So, was whether or not you could bring in the other aspects of your te your your trainings and teachings and understandings and the a very progressive the the denomination is a rather progressive denomination uh and and allows a lot of lot of creativity and latitude which I which I joyfully take. You know that. Except for me that that's one of the quotes I have on the Viking Academy website is from Krishna Merti and is that a mind that is constantly learning can never be hurt. Oh, exactly. Yes. I love that. And so that's that joyous discovery or uh exploration and discovery and not getting closedminded and saying this is the one and only way you can attach to your spirit. Right? And that's why the Viking Academy has no We have no denomination, right? Like there's like the Viking Academy.

I talk about Odin a lot or I talk about the All Father and some of Spirits, but it's not like they're coming here to do pagan rituals, right? It's like you can take all aspects of just go out and explore and find what works for you and integrate that into yourself. Like bring those pieces that resonate with you and you can pull it together, right? And then it becomes fuller. And then don't but don't close off like never close off. Always have that childlike wonder and exploration and curiosity. And I like what you said like what amazing opportunities are going to come to me today? What is what is the world going to surprise me with today that I'm going to be able to take integrate into myself and and expand what I'm experiencing? One of my very favorite passages from the Hebrew Bible is the story of Moses going up on the mountain to get the Ten Commandments and he finds the burning bush.

The bush is burning and God speaks to Moses Moses and Moses wants to know who this is that's speaking to him. And so God he he asks the bush for its name and he says Yahweh I am. Uh and Moses asks him again like you know that's kind of insufficient and the bush says I am who I am and I think that all of the problems of humanity uh down through the ages have been due to our desire our need to add an object to the subject. I am Christian. I am Buddhist. I am you know this white privileged man. I am uh whatever. Because when we when we put an object to the subject, we limit the limitless. You just stop my thinking right there. That was beautiful. No, seriously. Like so it's like in the Dao it says that which is named the Dao is not the Dao. That which you called the Dao is not the Dao. It's so when you say that's God well that's not God because you just called it you made it object.

Exactly. And and you're a and so we if we apply that to ourselves I am that I am. Yeah. I am but you know unlike you know for you and me in our early professions I am um a lawyer. I am a trial lawyer. You are I am an accountant. Um those labels are you know the label well I would say I'm a trial lawyer because that means I'm like really important in this room u but those but those labels are limit limiting you know it comes back to our conversation at the beginning about you know one's unique ability and the one thing it it's it's it's limiting and if we're made in the image of the divine arguably we have unlimited capacity I'm going to put a button in it right there. That was beautiful. Yeah, let's do that. Yeah, let's let's let's stick a pin in it right there because I think that is that is uh that is the hanger.

We'll leave that as the cliffhanger for every listeners to just kind of soak on that one and going the subject, not the object. What the [ __ ] was he? What was he talking about? What was talking about? My face is melting. Um, no. Yeah, I'm going to need some time to integrate that. That is We're gonna leave right there, man. Such a gift to be with you, man. Thank you so much for being on the podcast again, Walt. We're going to do this again. All right, we will. Okay, brother. Thank you. You're welcome. Bye for now. Bye. Thanks for listening to the Viking Academy podcast. Make sure to leave us your honest feedback by leaving a review on Apple or Spotify, and hit subscribe so you never miss an episode.