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Today, we are exploring the art of honest communication, breaking down barriers, and building genuine connections.

I’m joined by Grace Gavin, co-founder of Know Honesty. Grace is a guide for those brave enough to face the truth within themselves and bold enough to listen to others without reservation. With a heartfelt approach and the ability to ask the right questions, Grace guides people towards becoming masterful communicators, fostering openness and honesty in every interaction.

In this conversation, Grace redefines what it means to be open and honest, sharing how honesty is about being true to yourself, while openness is about fully listening without reservation. We discuss the balance between self-centeredness and self-serving, the dangers of brutal honesty, and how subconscious “brick walls” block genuine communication. Grace also reveals how breaking autopilot conversations can unlock deeper connections and introduces her 6 Practices for Honesty and Openness to transform communication.

Topics We Explore:

• The true meaning of honesty and openness in communication
• Why we are often worse at being open than being honest
• The impact of brutal honesty and the subconscious “brick walls” it creates
• The 6 Practices for Honesty and Openness
• Creating clarity by understanding what you truly want and prioritizing it

Connect with Grace Gavin: https://knowhonesty.com/

Learn More about The Viking Academy: https://www.vikingacademy.com/membership

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Episode Transcript:

Hi everyone and welcome back to the Viking Academy podcast today we have Grace Gavin now Grace is a co-founder of a company called No honesty no as in knw honesty. Com and um the the reason why.

I brought her on the podcast is they have stumbled upon an organizational issue when they were in their business trainings they used to be EOS implementers and then what they found is for those of you who don't know what that is worry about it the the main gist of it is it was a finding that they stumbled across that the problem in organizations and the reason why there was so much friction is because people weren't being honest and when.

I stumbled across their uh stumbling across findings. I thought holy this is actually a huge powerful tool not just for organizations but for all the Vikings of the Viking Academy and everyone in the world for that matter.

I think all our friction comes in is the fact that we're not able to sit down and actually have an open and honest conversation with one another about what's going on with ourselves and with the world and for us to work together on fixing problems now here's the thing in this interview we go deep into what we call autopilot conditioning and how we've been trained to kind of see the world through a conditioned lens and the ultimate goal here is for you to figure out who you are and why you're here on the planet this um we cover off six practices that you can do right away from this podcast that will help you become more open and honest in your Communications with people and and again.

I find out in my exploration in this podcast that the more. I'm able to approach this the more. I not only am able to communicate with others more effectively. I learned a whole bunch of things about myself that.

I had hidden buried and conditioned under years of mind games that. I've played upon myself this tool that they have here the agreement one of my favorites. I'm actually going to implement it right away because.

I have a couple of ugly or shall we say ugly some difficult conversations to have with people this agreement is going to make it so much easier to have those conversations now. I really hope you enjoy this podcast as much as.

I enjoyed um recording it with Grace. I see a lot more opportunities in the future for us to collaborate so anyways there you go without further Ado let's go explore Grace welcome to the podcast thanks so much for having me Eric.

I am so excited to see where this conversation goes me too that's always uh it's always a a surprise to me where these end up going. I have a rough idea where. I want to explore.

I definitely have some ideas or some Concepts. I want to cover but we naturally just kind of go all over the place so. I. I want you to start this off just explaining what the mission is on no honestly like what where what brought you to this because.

I love the messaging and. I can't wait to get a little bit deeper into it but what brought you to bring up bring this to life so many different examples in my life and stories in my life from the professional side of things the personal side of things.

I grew up as the last of eight kids on a dairy farm and so one of those aspects is already enough chaos but you had the other one in and there's a lot that can and did go wrong in communication and.

I think that. I'll share a personal one and a work one does that work for you it works for me always okay perfect so on the personal side of things about four years ago my dad passed away from stage four cancer and five months before that is when we got the diagnosis and my dad was a farmer he was a fighter through and through and so.

I remember it was my mom and myself in the hospital because it was covid times and we remember the chaos of the covid times and we got the diagnosis stage four small cell carcinoma and my dad started chemo in the hospital was going to fight it those types of things and and so that's that's what we did as a family we planned out the medications the treatment plan we tried to keep him farming but it didn't work out so well and over the course of five months.

I just watched my dad this once giant of a man very stubborn very set in his ways deteriorate in front of us and what was really tough and what leads me to be so passionate about the work that.

I do today is that nobody in my family would acknowledge the reality that we were dealing with and the reality of that was a stage four diagnosis but even further the reality of that was a 3% chance of survival and so the question that we never asked is are we are we doing the right thing here we just kind of plowed ahead and didn't didn't acknowledge the reality of our situation.

I didn't even look up the stats that was actually shared by one of my sisters to me she said there's a 3% chance of survival and she kind of wondered what what are we doing here and.

I. I almost couldn't accept that reality and so to me. I lost. I lost a lot of time. I lost a lot of questions that. I could have asked my dad being an entrepreneur now and what he'd gone through and and sharing that with me because of not acknowledging the reality of the situation and saying this this is not a fight that he's likely to win of that 3% survival rate and five months later is when we lost him and we didn't acknowledge that reality and.

I think there's a lot of things in our lives personally and professionally that we don't acknowledge the reality of that we ignore and ignore and ignore until it's until it's too loud and we can't ignore it anymore kind of the there's a reason the Kick the Can down the road is a is a saying and.

I think it's really we do it a lot as human beings we just are unwilling to acknowledge the reality to be honest about our situation or to have other people be honest about their situation and we leave each other in the dark and un and unable to actually do anything that would make a difference and so that's on the personal side of things why this work is really important to me because.

I don't want people to go through that and to not know that there's another option out there and then on the professional side of things that really kicked to this work into motion is that myself and my co-author my co-founder Ken Bogard we helping leadership teams of businesses Implement a proven system if anybody's familiar with EOS we were helping them Implement that and what we found is that for those leadership teams there was a rare percentage that implemented the system and just took off like a rocket it was amazing but there was a higher percentage that just really struggled and we were looking at okay what's.

What's Happening Here what's the distinction between these teams and it was really the teams that had an ability a high ability to be honest and open with each other that made the difference that meant that they could acknowledge the reality around them they could say the tough things get to the root of an issue deal with it and move on and not have to come back to it over and over and over again and get stuck and so that's that's my personal side of things that brings me to this work and keeps me doing it day in and day out and the professional side of things that knowing the difference it can make if you have a team around you that is able to be open and honest and you're able to be open and honest with that team the difference that it makes it's.

I'm not saying it's going to make your life easier but it will make it um more of a team effort within the work that you're doing so it doesn't feel like you're doing it all alone all the time there are so many ways.

I could unpack everything you just said there in those D that thank you for sharing that uh personal story the thing that struck me the most about that when you were saying about how we ignore the truth ignore the truth ignore the truth until it gets so loud that you can ignore it but the in that first scenario you talked about the truth was like there was nothing you could do because it was over like you ignored the truth for so long and then the opportunity to actually do something productive or beautiful with that information was gone it's lost um interesting is what is what's your uh family lineage what's the background like the like because.

I'm from a Norwegian background like East northern European like talk about stubborn and not wanting to talk about the reality like there's an elephant in a room and no one will talk about it like what what was your background or your family background yeah my dad side we are Dutch so my maiden name was vanen Brink that's how Dutch.

I. I am Rec got married in June and the Dutch aren't uh you know stubborn at all you know right right yeah so that you know. I. I find that there's been a theme coming up in the account in the in the Viking Academy.

I mean it's this past conditioning it's our conditioning to be the people we're not and for me it's all about this exploration and the figuring out who we are and that's why. I loved uh when.

I came across you and got the introduction to have you on the podcast and. I started looking into know honestly um the website and what the message was. I was like this is amazing because no we can't move forward without telling the truth and so there's like the fact that you've you've seen this happen in your life personally and professionally and then it spurred you to bring forth no honesty as as an actual business and tell me a little bit more about that like how do you and then.

I want to dive back into the the nuances of of honesty but what brought you to to to bring the the business forward it was just this continued curiosity from people so originally it was just going to be a book and it was actually Ken was going to put it out into the world and and we didn't really know where it would go from there and then.

I got more involved with it and then we created our pursuit of honesty assessment because people wanted to put numbers to this and then they were talking about okay well how do. I do this with my team what does that look like and so and so taking the process further so the book is actually when people read it it's one half education Theory the other half is the practical application of it because what we found out there is that there's so many fantastic books on communication and Leadership but the applicable part of them was really missing.

I was like okay what does this really look like in practice and so half the book is what we call the six practices to actually put the ability to be open and honest into practice because that's just it's not out there in a real clear way for people and if we're not starting from the same basis point if we're not starting from the same Foundation within our relationships within our teams within our organizations well then it's really hard to get on the same page and so for the listeners out there.

I just want to be clear on what we mean by open and honest because a lot of times we take open and honest in our culture right now to just be about ourselves and that doesn't work when we're in a team and when we're in an organization so the first half we have honesty which we Define as being truly and freely yourself speaking into what you want and how you feel really really important we got to have that side of things and we find that most people are better at this than they are at the other side of the equation which is openness and the reason.

I think people are better at honesty is because it's what's put out into our world a lot more the me myself and. I side of things is a lot more clear but what we don't address a lot of times is the openness side and so here's where.

I'm going to challenge listeners to think about openness differently openness as we Define it is listening without reservation putting your needs and wants on pause for someone else and. I would challenge people how well are you doing that today how well is your team doing that today how well is your organization as a whole doing that heck how well are we doing that as a world today and.

I we have the data through our assessment that shows that we are worse at being open than we are at being honest and there's a lot of reasons that go into that but it's acknowledging the two halves of communication and we're missing a big half um you must have been reading my mind because this is exactly where.

I was going in my head because. I hear about this authenticity and yourself and just freely Express who you are well. I don't want a truly authentic brain surgeon which all of a sudden comes to me on the day of my surgery and goes you know Eric.

I'm just not feeling it today. I really just don't feel like being here for you and and doing this so. I'm you know. I'm going to be authentic to myself and. I'm not going to do the brain surgery today and.

I'm like uh no. I need it done now like where's that balance between self-centeredness and selfs serving and. I think that's what we're talking about here when you're looking at honesty and openness is like being honest with yourself this is where.

I'm coming from but then being open and saying even though this is where. I'm coming from. I need to serve others this is my my it's like a my duty or my honor to serve others so.

I need to be open and and and and listen to other people's needs put the two together and then how can. I find a solution between the two right yes and because. I find and and you know what.

I'm guilty okay. I'm a man of extremes like. I'm a chartered accountant on one end like. I'm you know CPA on one end and then. I'm a heavy metal Enthusiast and. I play drums and scream loud crazy 80s heavy metal like.

I go extremes on both sides so. I go okay. I'm gonna be 100% honest with myself but then. I'm also going to go over here. I'm just going to be self-sacrificing and serve everybody so.

I. I personally have this oscillation between those two ends of the spectrum and. I see that happening in society and we do that we'll switch all the way to the right on the political Spectrum then we switch all the way to the left on the political spectrum and it's like where's this middle balance and.

I think what you're talking about here is this this Middle Road this middle way is like being honest with yourself but also being caring for others so how do you how do you reconcile those two yeah.

I think we get so focused on the honesty side of things of. I have to be heard make it about me because a lot of times there's not somebody on the other side who's open to us and it's because it's not modeled well.

I think out in society but when we are open with somebody else when. I'm really listening to what you have to say. I'm giving you an experience that you don't get a lot of other places they did a study and they said we walk through our days and we only feel really really heard 5% of the time and so then then it's no wonder that we go to extremes where we have to feel like we have to scream out our honesty to be heard was because to some extent we do have to be because there's not people out there who are really listening to what we have to say and.

I want to make a distinction there that. I'm saying listening to other people. I'm not saying you have to agree with people. I'm not saying that you have to like what they have to say but we're losing the ability to even just hear somebody who's on the opposite side of.

I don't know the political Spectrum or an idea in the workplace or a project that they see it completely differently and what what we're being taught and what we're being told to do right now is just shut them down not hear anything they have to say they are absolutely wrong and what that does is hinders our ability to collaborate and to come together we share this world with 8 billion people so we cannot be the only person with the best right most amazing idea that doesn't work that cannot be the reality it just isn't there are so many people have gone through different experiences who see things differently and so we do have to to create that collaboration and come back into the middle and that's just not happening these days and this is this is again why.

I was so excited when. I saw your website and. I saw what the messaging was. I went this is so needed in society right now is to go we need to be open and honest with one another but we need to be able to sit and be well let's be honest with ourselves and open with others it's that com now that you put those two together.

I can see how that that's the that's the mixing of the two where you know in ancient Greece and Roman they used to they used to you know debate topics all the time and they were contentious issues but it was an active debated let's get into the and talk about our our our differences so that we can figure it out now we have this ccel culture where it's the minute you have say something that well that's wrong we're just going to cancel it we're not even going to listen to it.

I'm like H how can that help us like that moves to a totalitarian state which. I am so violently against. I just. I can't stand that thought of someone telling us what to do.

I'm an incredibly St Viking and you cannot tell me what to do. I will not do it right but it's being open and being having that communication with another person and the thing that.

I've found is when. I've had moments where. I've been completely open and just said could you please explain to me where you're coming from so. I can understand it soon as. I start to empathize or start to understand where they're coming from it's almost like.

I unlock another part of my brain or my emotions that goes click and. I go oh. I resonate with that and now. I get it now. I understand why you're coming from this because there's a part of me that feels that way too but it was maybe buried under a bunch of conditioning and hidden so.

I find that that openness actually helps me understand myself even better yes absolutely. I think this is uh and we. I don't know that we get into this in the book specifically but as.

I'm talking with more people and having more conversations about this it's the the openness can feel scary to people at first they're like what do you mean. I'm. I'm going to listen to somebody.

I'm going to put my needs and wants on pause like then how am. I going to get what. I need but when you can do that. I think it helps people stand more firmly in themselves as well because.

I can hold on to my honesty what. I think what. I believe and then. I can stand in that really strongly and be open to you it creates a whole new Dynamic where. I'm like.

I'm confident in what. I've got but. I also know that. I can continue to learn and to grow and. I'm not staying stuck anymore like oh like you're saying. I can relate to that or maybe.

I see it from a different perspective but now. I understand at least where you're coming from. I had this conversation with a gentleman a while ago and we are on we were on complete opposite sides of everything we talked about politics we talked about feminism we talked about all of the topics that you can think about the most contentious things and even Within Myself even doing this work.

I. I could understand why people get so fearful around these conversations that like fear of like running away because this felt threatening to a second and. I had to think to myself for a second no wait hang on just because he believes these things and he sees these things differently doesn't have to change what.

I see but now. I understand him more and you know what happened out of that conversation Eric we found common ground and. I said here's where. I here's where. I see this and he says here's where.

I see this. I'm like okay. I think we're actually aligned on this he's like yeah. I think we're just using different language around there and it wasn't didn't become hostile and it so quickly could have but instead we found a middle ground together and we had a better conversation because of that and.

I'll tell you we have a stronger relationship because of that yeah and there's there in lies that the. I've had a bit of a battle myself and just from the Viking Academy perspective so the whole idea of the Viking Academy was to call it self-improvement wrapped in a viking blanket so it's like exploring the mind the body and spirit but being an Explorer being courageous and and exploring and another phrase that.

I uh use quite often is from Christian am merty was a spiritual teacher he says a mind that is constantly learning can never be hurt and that's something that just keeps in my head if you're constantly learning if you're constantly exploring if you're bravely going and exploring and being curious and always learning and never keeping yourself stuck you will never be hurt because you're constantly groaning and learning that next phase and next step of your life but the Vikings were all like no you don't like it grab my sword and.

I'm going to just going to go beat you over the head that's not what. I'm talking about by being a viking right okay at the same time it's kind of like oh yeah be a viking rape and pillage.

I'm like no no no no no no no it's like it it's being Fearless in the exploration and that's what the Vikings they embrac that ethos and they also embrained the mind body and spirit as well but for me it's it's.

I want to be able to have and. I'm working on this too right like. I mean. I'm still trying to get myself wrapped around and going just be open when. I'm really push someone says something and a big blocker comes up.

I'm like okay wait Eric do you really understand what they're feeling and thinking and. I was like. I'm trying to change my thinking around that so that. I can approach it the way you're talking about so that.

I could have some of those Beautiful Moments where you just had with that someone who was completely on the different side in terms of extreme right extrem left if we want to just call it from a political Spectrum or or if it was religion whatever it was but having a conversation where you found middle ground because as humans we all want the same thing we all want to feel safe we all want to feel productive we all want to have our children grow in a safe environment like every race every can every H every human wants that and it's just we have triggered it in different ways where all of a sudden violence becomes somehow a solution to give us the things that we really want but it doesn't work like it does violence doesn't work it it never it never works because it's there's no ending cycle to it but what you just talked about there felt like a completion like it was oh we found middle ground and all of a sudden there was a piece to it because it's like.

I get you. I understand you you understand me so that's why. I think you what the work you're doing is so incredible and it's so important yeah. I. I app appreciate that and. I think as.

I observe and what's happening there is that when you talk about the violence what violence does is it locks us into conflict and then we can't get out of it for if those are watching on video my fingers are locked together and we can't get out of it because we're stuck in the conflict at that point and what.

I view open and honest doing is it is it creates around that conflict a way to behave and to operate so that we can unlock from it to come back to say okay am.

I being honest here am. I being open here and what when we get locked in Conflict we're really great at being honest brutally so like we're talking about clubing people over the head and all those types of things but what brutal honesty does not do is it does not create a real conversation because if.

I'm going to come at you with a dagger or with a club or whatever what is a human's natural reaction it is to lean away it is to run away it is to protect right and within the book this is one of our six practices and you touched on it a little bit but it's what we call the wall and so if.

I'm coming at somebody with brutal honesty they are immediately not going to be open they are going to put up what we call the wall and so. I want you to imagine quite literally a brick wall and when somebody puts up a brick wall between you and them what happens to your communication it's done it's gone and we as individuals are doing that all the time to each other consciously at times but a lot of times this becomes subconscious it's just the way of operating the way our neural Pathways in our brain have been going for so long that we don't even realize oh when somebody says something on uh around religion.

I don't want to talk about religion so. I'm going to put up a wall there and so you never get to know somebody's perspective or learn something different or if somebody. I see this happening in the workplace all the time if somebody brings a new idea and their last idea sucked and it didn't work out and it created a lot of extra work for you you immediately put up a wall to that too you're like.

I don't want to hear anything of what they have to say and then. I see teams missing out on transformational ideas because they are simply not willing to be open to it they're not willing to just for a moment entertain the idea to see where it could go because of the previous history there and it it really holds us down and holds us back and that is all driven by the mechanism of the mind and the emotions which is to protect ourselves so you know.

I have a psychology degree so i'. I've done lots of work in the psychology realm in this but. I. I keep getting deeper and deeper into this idea of our we don't see reality for what it is we no one sees it for what it is because of our past conditioning and our uh yeah it's our past conditioning because we don't see things the way they are because for example like you just said the one person that came up with an idea didn't work well now the second time they bring it up you're instantly going to stay away from it well why does the Mind do that and it's always just a protection mechanism because our that's what our minds and emotions are just constantly trying to Keep Us Alive and safe and secure so the mind on man the lizard brain.

I call it you know. I think we need an upgrade to our Software System. I think our whole Consciousness needs to be upgraded before we can move forward move Beyond where we're at right now with this whole conflict and violence it you need to be able to be open to hearing what you what you just said like where is the brain just protecting me so if.

I can actually stop and go oh the reason why. I'm feeling that way because that's my lizard brain telling me to try and protect me but is it really helping me in today's me today's world like the cell phone.

I'm going to hold the cell phone up there's so many messages and stuff coming on here it say saber-tooth tiger that's all my brain tells me it's a saber-tooth tiger so it's just trying to stop the but it's not real like it's not based in reality and so what you're talking about here is like the person's idea was wrong and it didn't work before but did anyone die from it no why am.

I behaving like if we try and entertain another idea from that person we're somehow going to die from it like that's where the logic doesn't come in but if you look at it and say oh this is just my brain activating this way to try and protect me but does it really and then being looking at it honestly and.

I think this is that honesty is looking out how your brain honestly works yeah and saying if. I'm constantly if. I'm not being open. I. I like this construct. I'm starting it's really starting to sink into me so being honestly looking at what my brain's doing but then saying.

I need to be open to grow and to get along with other people so why don't. I just entertain this idea again and we there's nothing wrong with talking about an idea but every time.

I see my brain saying no and blocking it off just looking at it and go oh it's just trying to stop me because it has a history of this person's idea is not working but what if this one does right doesn't mean we have to implement it we can decide about whether or not implementing it but at least let's entertain it exactly exactly and for those listening that you're protecting you're like well.

I'm not what am. I protecting myself from. I'm not under threat here protecting can look a lot of different ways like we're talking about the past conditioning but protecting can also look like your brain trying to protect your energy and wanting to be the most efficient possible our brain is an efficiency machine that is why when you have a conversation with somebody nine times out of 10 it will go how are you doing good how are you good okay great because we have made that a standard introduction we're trying to our brains there are trying to conserve energy and it what might have used to have been a way to connect with somebody is now just this rot thing that we do over and over that doesn't actually serve us anymore to connect us and we're doing that over and over again by putting up these walls and trying to protect ourselves in certain ways or trying to protect our energy because that's.

I mean that's that's how we evolve to be efficient and now efficiency still is important to me but it looks different now and is it efficient to always shut down your team members ideas certainly is not it only serves to break down your team on that whole rote you know we was oh how are you great great how are you great great great the best way to break that is when someone this oh how are you and you turn a look at them and say do you really care and they'll just boom you just you see them kind of Deering the headlights like oh oh and now they got to think now you have to think.

I just made you conscious it's like do you really care and then you go yeah Eric actually. I really do care well because you really care. I'm going to tell you. I actually had a really shitty day this morning and this is what happened and now you're engaged in a real conversation instead of this just surface garbage like when anybody and here's another one when somebody asks me what.

I do great on liner because. I. I also find that when people come and ask you Oho what do you do all they're really doing is trying to figure out where you are in the pecking order like are you a brain surgeon are you a rock star are you you digging ditches are you picking up garbage like you know what.

I mean they're just trying to figure out where you land my favorite one is like oh so what do you do and. I always say as little as possible and then they laugh and then they go oh my God and that's hilar and then we've broken the ice and now we're having a real conversation exactly exactly really is.

I keep saying yeah. I'm try. I do as little as possible now my little as possible is maybe someone else's five jobs but it's still for me as little as possible no that's so good it shocks us out of that because you said it it makes them conscious it it takes us off the autopilot because we are on autopilot so often and but when we're on autopilot with somebody else what we're losing then is connection we're not really connecting with somebody else there we're just almost pretending at having a conversation at that point it's like we've we've made these scripts out in our mind and we're following it and when you do that when you say.

I do as little as possible you're breaking the script you're making something different there we're getting to something fun or Innovative or different that that's going to create a new neural pathway for somebody it's going to shock them out of the system that they're in yes and.

I'm. I'm. I'm starting to play with that more because. I'm really realizing that the the fun comes into the play like if we can start playing a little bit more instead of making things so serious and heavy and right and you know my history.

I come originally from the accounting world so. I was chartered accountant and. I was in there for 26 years and then. I started coaching accounting firms but those that we're talking about heavy you want to talk about honesty we bring up ideas and things that change and the partners of the firm instantly crush crush and every time you came up with a new idea you'd get crushed in front of everybody and finally everybody want it we're not going to say anything anymore so you're sitting in a board meeting and then the partners are all pissed off because no one's bringing anything to the table well of course we're not going to bring anything to the table because every time we say something you make us look stupid in front of everybody and and you destroy it right and that whole communication model is is horrible yeah exactly there there's a total lack of openness there in that scenario and then they Wonder well why are people not being honest and that honest can look like new ideas or it can be.

I see it in clients all the time where there's a process that's broken but nobody wants to bring it up to fix it or to say what we could be more efficient here we could do this differently because the leader is not open they are not willing to entertain any different ideas they are not willing to listen to what somebody has to say now they might they might quote unquote listen they might say mhm yep uhhuh but they're not actually taking it in and understanding what the person is saying they're not listening without reservation they've got all those walls up those guardrails that they're not they're not really there in the conversation with you so nothing changes and then if nothing changes and.

I'm going to bring you another idea just for it to do nothing again and then the leader ends up wondering why did nobody tell me about this well you you got to look at yourself and wonder were you really listening to people were you really listening my bet is you weren't oh yeah and.

I know when. I'm not listening to somebody because. I'm busy thinking about all the things. I'm going to say be as they're talking and. I'm like uh am. I really listening to this so in this so there's two so honesty and openness is really got me thinking in terms of getting off of autopilot.

I want to become more consciously aware talk can you share a little bit more about these you said there was six modalities or five what was it in your book yeah six practices okay yeah so yeah so what we want to do at no honesty is.

I'm really focused on making communication simple tangible and implementable because. I want an entry point for everybody. I want us to all be on the same page so that we can move forward and then be efficient but sometimes sometimes we're not clear on what kind of communication we want within our team so Ken and.

I have created the six practices because open and honest is not like you got it or you don't there skills were building all the time when we first started researching this Eric and we really looked at okay so everybody wants to be honest honesty is the best policy why is it not happening and and that's where we found openness is there's people on the other side who just are not willing to listen without res res can't talk reservation to each other uh putting their needs and wants on pause and looking at that.

I was like oh shoot. I am not good at that. I like to be efficient and and plow through things and it's my way or the highway type of thing got that from my dad love you Dad thank you so much not one of the skills that.

I learned there because of that and. I looked. I was like oh shoot. I really got to work on this because. I was doing what you were saying before constantly pre-populating my ideas thinking oh.

I'm going to jump in here because this is really good and. I got to share this and while there is value to sharing the ideas and getting excitement and having that energy going in a conversation what.

I didn't realize is what. I was doing is. I was cutting everybody else off and. I was not letting them finish their side of the conversation knocking down their honesty so again they're not going to bring it to me as as often as possible and so.

I say that to say that. I've really worked hard in these past four years of doing this work writing the book working with clients to be more open to really just sit there and listen to somebody let them complete their full sentence their thoughts so and then pause then have my response that pauses me processing what am.

I going to say next these are skills that we build and so that's why we have why we call them the six practices because they are practices that we do on a daily basis weekly basis quarterly basis that help us build more openness and more honesty in each relationship that we have in each team that we're in and in our organization whatever that looks like for you it's a process over time it's a Pursuit that we go on with our clients it's not here's the definitions boom you're really good at this that is not the reality of how human beings work right and so what are those six practices yeah.

I'll you want me to just list them real quick yeah just list them off we don't go super deep in one but. I just want to understand so the listener has like a framework to go oh and and and so just you know this.

I. I was thinking about this beforehand with the conversation is that we're going to naturally go into business which is. I love because. I'm a business owner and. I and. I have entrepreneurial coaching companies and finance businesses and so.

I love business. I love that side of the world but it's the personal development it's. I think it's all part of it so we're kind of weaving in and out because if you're not honestly being yourself bringing your and again with Julia Waller bringing your unique ability to the world and then doing it in this collaborative effort with other people we can't make anything happen in the world like it's your family you can't the family function doesn't work if there's no honesty and.

I mean. I like when you were sharing the story with your family it's that tugged at my heartstrings because we didn't have true honesty in my family like it just wasn't there and you know it was like put your nose to the grindstone and work or if it was something there was stubbornness and it didn't happen so this is this framework is not only for business it's for life like for me that's why it's so important so what are the six practices that you out yeah yeah.

I'll share them and. I do think they're applicable across work life and personal life so the first one that we start out with is the assessment so that's our pursuit of honesty assessment gives the real-time data on your ability to be honest and to be open and we do break it down into your personal life and your work life because they are different at times now hopefully they're aligned but if they're not we need to know that we need to understand right why is this person not showing up this way at work is it the team around them is it their leader there's more to uncover there or if it's not happening in their personal life what's going on there so that's the first one then from there once we know where the numbers are we understand we get deeper into.

What's blocking us from being 100% honest 100% open that's the next two practices one of which. I already shared but the next one is fake you so that's the facade we project rather than being 100% honest we know what it feels like to be fake we have done it all the time.

I used to do it when. I went to networking events it is exhausting and it is not serving us or the people around us so that's number two number three is the wall that we already talked about that is the divide that um blocks us from being open with other people it's the Divide we create between ourselves and others rather than being 100% open so that's the first three the assessment fake you the wall then from there we go to the agreement and the agreement is this simple powerful proven script that we've developed that you can kick off any conversation with that will get you to real communication so much faster and essentially the quick version of that is.

I want you to be 100% honest. I promise. I'll be 100% open and then. I will be honest with you and. I ask that you be completely open to it we very rarely start out conversations like that these days we very rarely put the boundaries in next expectations of the kind of communication we want to have and especially in a workplace setting we have a whole employee handbook a lot of times that says here's all of the the dos and don'ts but we don't often put communication in there so that's where the agreement comes in and you can have that in place in your workplace you can put that in place with your family.

I've done it with my mom. I've done it with my husband and it just it's a living breathing agreement so we come back to that because as humans we will fall short of that but we can come back to it and use that as a guidepost then the fourth or the sorry the fifth practice is the still and what this still is is it's a snapshot of the current version of yourself and so.

I have leaders go through this because a lot of times as Leaders we're busy busy people we're constantly flitting and running around from thing to thing we don't pause to reflect on where we're really at in our life and so we look at the still looks at your life through a series of categories and we look at are you content or discontent because if you're content in a lot of areas so fantastic.

I love that for you it is showing up in your leadership if you are discontent in a lot of areas that is also showing up in your leadership and we need to be aware of that and where we can course correct which leads us to the last of the six practices which is your Pursuit and your Pursuit answers the question what do you really want what do you really want because again we don't pause to consider what are we working towards as a team as a as a spouse house as a any relationship in our lives what do we really want and when we can put our lives in that context it gets really clear on why we need to be open and honest and how it works us towards that because when.

I have clients clarify what it is they really want. I then ask them okay what's the next step that's going to get you towards that and about 80% of the time it's a conversation that they have to go have with somebody where they have to have open and honest conversations because like again like like.

I've been talking about we can't do it alone we don't get towards what we really want alone which also means that we have. I think an obligation to help other people get what they really want and when we can do that.

I believe the world gets to be a really beautiful interesting place that's awesome so i'. I've WR wrote These down so the honest the first one is the honest so you do a honesty assessment to figure out how how honest are you right now like your honesty ability and openness yep and your openness your honesty and openness assessment number two is the fake you number three is the wall number four is the agreement love that agreement man that could have.

I'm using that like today. I know there's a conversation. I'm going into today. I'm using it today 100% the still the snapshot. I like that again that's. I think maybe identifying where you are what's holding you back from being honest and open so if you're content in an area because anybody who's really secure in themselves and.

I think anybody who acts UNT another person they're just insecure they just are insecure people because you don't hurt somebody if you're completely secure in yourself you don't like physically mentally emotionally hurt someone so it's it's figuring out where those those maybe unconscious things are you're bringing them conscious you're bringing them up saying hey here's where you're discontent and that's probably causing part of the reason why you're not able to be as honest and open and as you as as the assessment says you or why the assessment says you're not that way you're exactly right and then ultimately being completely honest is like what do you really want in life.

I think that's a question very few people can really answer like what do you really want but when you stop and actually think about it you got if you knew exactly what you really wanted and then you looked at your behavior you could tell right away where your behaviors are taking you farther away from what you really want or bringing you closer to it that's exactly right and sometimes.

I'll get people asking well isn't that really selfish Grace asking people what they really want and for some people the answer is yes but a lot of times what. I find is that the first 30 seconds of when.

I ask somebody what they really want all the selfish things come out because they haven't been heard or these are things that they just immediately think of but when. I give them another minute or another five minutes or another 10 minutes and they go deeper and.

I say okay let's go beneath that what is it that okay why do you want that and why do you want that well. I want to connect with my family okay so that's why you want to make a lot of money because you want to be able to to not have to work so hard anymore because you want to spend time with your family okay and why do you want to spend time with your family because.

I feel like we're not really connecting okay well if that's what you really want well there are some changes that we can make that don't necessarily equal to you having to make a lot of money so then you don't have to work anymore so you can hang out with your family maybe it's an adjustment in your working hours or there's so many different ways that we get at it but when we can take 5 minutes 10 minutes to think about it at a deeper level.

I find that people really want some beautiful things and it ends up a lot of times being connection with others or helping others have a better experience and the the workplace is. I want a better culture for my people or.

I want a better employee experience or. I want this team to have the work life balance that we've been craving for years it's it becomes a lot less selfish when we take a minute for it and really think about what do we really want but because we're so busy because we're always activated because we're always moving it's the selfish wants that tend to come to the Forefront we think if.

I just get that then. I'll be happy if. I just get that then. I'll be happy the question is is it really is that really what you want this Rings uh of maso's high hierarchy of needs to me at maso's hierarchy of needs you know what it's the triangle shape of the triangle for those listeners that don't know it just.

I do a quick little Google search and you'll see it it'll be a triangle and maslo was a psychologist and what right at the bottom was your physical your food clothing shelter your basic needs but as each level of needs were met as you get higher and higher up shall we call the the the hierarchy it became more and more what your contribution was to the world and being more enlightened and helping others once we can it's kind of like being in an airplane they say take the oxygen mask put it on your face first then go and assist others so it's like if you don't take care of those basic needs for yourself and you take care of yourself first which seems selfish but once those first things are are are taken care of you can then take care of others.

I think this is where that that discontentedness versus content it's like um if you take care if you can take care of yourself then you can take care of others but. I think what you're also saying in that which just popped into my head now is that we get confused thinking that we need this thing first before we can take care of the second thing so we need this money before we can actually help be closer to the family but when you put the spotlight on what they really want is being close to the family they don't necessarily need more money they just need to readjust their priorities because we're caught in this hierarchy of needs thinking that.

I can't have the higher order thing. I want without the lower order being the way. I think they should be and so you just kind of crushed them the hierarchy model so to speak actually that's really cool.

I. I think also it's about what is what is your reality versus what have you been told is reality so we've been told that to be able to and let's just keep going with example to be able to spend a lot of time with your family that you have to make a bunch of money so you don't have to worry about anything ever again but it's the have you ever heard the story of the the fisherman where this.

I think it's a CEO or something goes to this guy who's fishing on a dock and he says why don't you like build up a whole empire out of this and make all this money so that you can then sit and Fish on the dock and he's like well why would.

I do all of that when. I can already sit and Fish on the dock why would. I go through all the stress of building an empire hiring a bunch of people so then. I can come back and sit on the dock well that's kind of what we follow all the time and for some people that's the right way to go and that's what they want to do and that's what they need to do but we all follow that if we're on that autopilot if we're not conscious of it we just kind of Follow.

The Path that's been laid before us without considering is this what. I really want is this how. I want my one unique life to go and. I think. I. I could go on a tangent about this but.

I think maybe that's where we see midlife crisis start to happen and why they happen is because people start to become conscious of like oh hang on. I have been on this train for the last 20 years and this isn't actually what.

I want and so without without going deeper and considering what do. I really want they end up. I don't know buying the sports car or blowing up their life and going somewhere different instead of understanding what adjustments could.

I make to move towards what it is. I really want because. I don't think you have to burn the whole thing down if you can start at the beginning from making those one degree changes those one degreee choices saying this isn't what.

I really want. I want to do it this way this isn't what. I really want. I want to do it this way but it all starts with telling the truth which is honest which is where are you honestly um in your where are you honestly in your head space where what is it that you really want and are the things that you're doing actually getting you towards what you really want you know we my wife and.

I we we do this once a once a year is that we plan out the next year and say okay what do we want for our life we do a like a planning for their businesses and for our personal life and our vacations and and you know we came to this big aha moment we went you know what we really want some we want experiences with our daughter she's 12 and you were thinking okay call it next five years before she pops out of un or high school and then she's she's already told us she's going to go travel the world she's GNA be gone right and so we're like we have five six years to have experiences with her and we that became a priority and then all of a sudden it made everything else so much Crystal Clear like it was all of a sudden we're like oh okay well then we'll adjust this this priority goes here this goes there and it just created so much Clarity for us and so now we're excited about the next year because we know what we're focused on because we've we've gotten clear on what we really want and we've been open and honest with each other um there's one other thing.

I just wanted to share with you is. I realized. I had a big ugly business situation happen we went through a legal battle it took about 6 months it was horrible it was just nasty we had to get rid of a partner and um but.

I'm looking through these practices and. I'm realizing we never. I never talked to this partner about what was really going on. I was afraid to talk to him about the issue because. I was afraid it was going to blow up and because.

I didn't talk about it it ended up blowing up even worse and becoming really nasty instead of just applying the agreement just saying look. I want to sit down and have a talk with you and.

I just want to have an agreement. I'm going to be completely honest with you and. I just want you to be open and then you're going to be completely honest with me and then.

I'm going to be open then we're going to see if we can find come to an agreement a solution that's going to help us continue to work together to get our goals that we really want because if.

I had done that it could have avoided that whole nasty blow up at the end because we just kept the void and both me and the other partner were not talking to this one guy didn't tell him the truth about his behavior and then it exploded the whole thing got messy so.

I wish. I had. I wish. I had met you a year ago all right well hopefully we're saving you from future heartache and pain then yes and and the listeners um Grace we so no honesty.

Com uh is the website correct that is correct and and just to be clear it's KNN for those that are only listening via audio it's KN n o w so that's a little play on words there because right now what we see out in the world.

I think at least is there's no honesty no o and what we want and what we hope to transform here is to turn it into K that people know honesty they know how to get to it using openness using the six practices so yes no honesty.

Com. I love it and for those members of the Viking Academy this will all be inside the membership site. I will have all the resources in there so that you can get to know honesty a little bit more for yourself Grace thank you so much for being on the podcast thank you so much Eric this was.

I never know where it's going to go and this was fun so thank you thanks for listening to the Viking Academy podcast make sure to leave us your honest feedback by leaving a review on Apple or Spotify and hit subscribe so you never miss an episode.